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Invincible Army Tactica N4 (WIP)

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Greysturm, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    You know, with the new wildcards, I wonder if it's worth trying to slot that Zhanshi GL into more fireteams. Power your fireteam up with those TacAware/NCO orders, do some shelling, then fall back.
     
  2. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Only if you have 1SWC to spare. TBH I feel there are much better guys of spending it in the sectorial.
     
  3. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Might work, although i would not fall back, its just to many orders. In theory it would be a decent way to try and deal with mimetism and rooftop jiders.
     
  4. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    We all know and love the Zhencha, in N3 i always wanted to take 2 but could never make it work too well. I managed to get this to the table in a few games before we went into lockdown 2.0 here in the uk.

    the hacker Zhencha can hold down a good chunk of the table using guided shenanigans, and now that guided is no longer a full order the link can reposition to attack, defend, press a button in a subsequent order.

    The link is multifunctional, can easily go on the attack or sit back and be defensive. Ive found it useful to hold it back to begin with and use its ranged punch to take out highest threats, and then push up in later turn to push buttons or hold quadrants (which it does very well due to it’s expense). Krit has, in all games ive used him in, done a heap of work. Be it specialist based or or just plain killing..... those heavy pistols are great up close!

    Lu Duan over Ru Shi? Well a hard choice as both are super useful, yet i found more utility in the Lu Duan thanks to the repeaters and having 2 hackers. Also those flame thrower templates can sure ruin someone’s day.

    it’s certainly a hammer of a list but with some tricks up it’s sleeve.


    Double zencha
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    DĀOYĪNG (Lieutenant [+1 Order], Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 30)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, Panzerfaust, Shock Mines / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 35)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Hacker, Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun ( ) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 41)
    KOKRAM FTO MULTI Rifle(+1 Dam), Chain-colt, D-Charges / Heavy Pistol(+1B), CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
    SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) AP Heavy Machine Gun, Chain-colt ( | TinBot: Firewall [-6]) / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 49)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle ( ) / Breaker Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 33)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun ( ) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 12)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Missile Launcher / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1.5 | 16)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower(+1B) ( | Deployable Repeater) / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (0 | 24)
    HÙSÒNG Yaókòng Heavy Machine Gun / PARA CC Weapon(-3). (1 | 24)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #64 Mics152, Nov 17, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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  5. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    I like zhencha lists, i took one with three of them last year and did well, will try yours eventually.
     
  6. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    @Greysturm I would add to Invincible weaknesses
    • Close Combat. only 2 troops can actually survive the test to this weakness Hulang and Hactao. and due to the dificulties making lists they'll probably be missing
    • Poor area denial to slow down the enemy. 40p infiltrator hakers? A lone vanilla HI? a Forward deployed CC speciallist without marker state? scarcity of minelayers on midtable... Suppressive fires easy to break through comms attacks...
    And obviously EM and T2 are not the only two ammunitions that heavily diminishes the performance of our HIs.. you should add EXP, Viral, Plasma, AP+Continous, AP+DA...
     
  7. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    I kinda agree with close combat, but IA don’t hit things they shoot things dead. The Hulang FD with koalas is a pretty useful piece.

    Area denial though i would have to disagree. Maybe in N3, but now with deployable repeaters and hacking effects being persistent we can really shut down a portion of the board. A son bae in a link becomes a real issue for your opponent if the don’t shake any spotlight hacks, not to mention any other program! Also Haidao sniper is a thing.

    I think maybe looking at it from the perspective of “we do it different” is better than “it doesn’t exist”.
     
  8. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    In my opinion, the relation between area coverage and cost is pretty poor to even be considered a decent area denial.

    Let's be clear, are you gonna invest 80+ points defending midtable with just two guys? with just two madtraps or a madtrap and a EM mine? No sir!

    are you gonna left a 41p non-camo troop alone in midtable to enable a mediocre hacker network? (just one killer hacker of BTS0 vulnerable to coordinated hacking or a couple of poor hackers like zanshis) no sir.

    trying to work on midtable and area denial, compromises list-building. Specially on an army that works arround 160-180 linkteams and struggles to make well rounded lists. An army that has an average cost of advanced specialist over 40p compared to the 24-26 of the rest of the factions. If CB would have wanted to give us midfield presence, it should have been by the "ambush camouflage" mechanic (decoys+camo), zencha minelayers, and Yaofang. It would have been through reliable hackers, not by glassy ones.

    Son-bae, guided doesn't benefit from linkteam. Guided just doesn't benefit from mods. and If your intention is to spotlight to the death enemy troopers in reactive your're gonna end up disappointed. the spotlight hacking ends up with a suicidal warband or cheap troop

    Haidao hacker Is decent. but there is too much dependance on it's visor to be a thing. Entering that second pseudowound and staying reacting is a death sentence. It certainly isn't a PANO tier ARO piece with visor, mimetism, in a 5 men fireteam, and cheaper

    And our toughness is not even top notch. Our 2nd wounds are one use only (they can't be healed). We don't have two levels of unconsciousness. We don't even have a decent "doctor" mechanic to recover our troopers. We rely on PH12 linked medikits (PANO doctoring style), or Enginnering without rerolls to our tags. Most of our engineers are even vulnerable to the same states they're there to solve. What's the point on a haidao Engineer or krit in a FT if a hacker can oblivion him and compromise It's main function? (have you seen a Rudra haris with trisha/parvati and a deva? the fucking inmortal-unstopable bot. even worse is the vostok) I've felt offended by comparison as an Invincible player)

    Let's face it, Invincible area denial is below average. It's main motto is endure it if you can and hit them hard while it last's.

    We can bring a little area denial/forward deploiment mechanics on our lists... but CB doesn't want it to be a thing. In my opinion, Liuxing is much more reliable and useful to the sectorial than any of the rest options. Dropit, (force the enemy to break assisted fire just by it), hit hard were it's difficult to your main forces, put a suppressive wen you're done and endure it
     
    #68 Mc_Clane, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  9. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Poor area denial: As you said, the problem isnt that the tools arent there but rather that they are expensive and you will miss out on bringing other things. So this goes on the already included points about high cost.

    Close combat: Anything is weak against CC specialists, but across alll factions and sectorials IA is above average in its cc capabilities.

    I will add poor area denial to potential weaknesses to look out for but since in most straight matchups between similar units IA comes out better in CC i am leaving close combat as is currently.
     
  10. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    Oh yeah definitely not great area denial, I would say greatly improved in N4.
    Actually i would pay and have payed that on Krit and a Hulang, and they both did work... but definitely not without help from other pieces.

    My main point was don’t try and do what other armies can do, because as you quite rightly said we don’t have those pieces. It’s always said that IA play like a hammer beating the crap out of a nail... which they are....but... over coming their blatant weakness is what takes skill, good tactics and strategy.

    Oh i get that the guided doesn’t get any bonuses i more just meant that it is usually in a link. Think of it this way: your expensive link can’t be everywhere, so have a hacker or repeater elsewhere that can spotlight something, use link team order to move up and fire missiles to the other side of the table. It may not be “order efficient” but is much more efficient than totally repositioning the link.
    Spotlight is great in ARO in more ways than making use of guided, once they are targeted they probably don’t want to run straight into a fire fight so reset first wasting orders, hopefully more than once thanks to the -3. Or they don’t waste the order and you have a +3.

    The Haidao hacker is great in a link with a tin-bot, outside of that i agree is pretty meh! In said link I’ve found him as much of a deterrent as an attacking piece. I generally have a Pangguling FTO in there too so his range is spread a bit more and the (almost certain) Daoying can make use of it too...... and i just realised you meant the sniper :D.
    Yeah agree about the visor and it suck when its useless, but its still a very affective piece in a defensive core.

    As for our toughness... again we are not every other faction. Play with what we have and ignore what others have that we don’t.... of course until its on the other side of the table.... then maybe just shoot it!
     
  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Sure, you can put the Missile launcher inside a FT as a filler. But, carelesliy puting the Guided misil launcher in a fireteam can be detrimental. If you try to shoot missiles from safety you'll be activating the rest of the fireteam members. Ergo your exposed ARO pieces, like the Haidao MSV wil be shooted down without oposition. The Guided missile is also better on long range distances, so moving it along all the table doesn't make much sense for me. It's a pretty static piece.

    It's great as an attack piece vs hackers... not a area denial tool. Defensively provides too little. I'm leaning more towards two other options. shangji hacker. It's a tough bastard to be dealt with via hacking inside a core with tinbot. Sixth sense (nulifies surprise and stealth), -6 to enemies, the equivalent to -9damage (-6against oblivion) and 2 wounds.
    The other options are a 2-3 zhanshi hackers in a core or externalize hacking. Thanks to a mobile repeater network (chief chung-hee, pango FTO, Ruishi) and a deployable one (Luduan and Krit) our hackers can stay back on deployment and perform a more focaliced hacking wherever our troops are.
    But I still feel were not up to the real deal concerning area denial. we cant rely on it to slow down our enemies or secure objectives just by the handicap on numbers. for the same price we deploy a midfield specialist/camo and a mine/koala, in other factions can almost deploy the double. For the price we line up a half-assed hacker, competent factions can deploy twice the number... double numbers, double ARO, double area coverage, double the distance to move to deal with them, double potential orders spent by the enemy on bypassing them. That's half the reason why I consider IA as a subpar sectorial concerning area denial and a obvious handicap when playing

    The other one, is the mirrored situation. when facing an area denial list, with lot's of hackers, mines, camos, we will be passing a hard time. We may have the "upper hand" concerning orderpool... but we don't have our resurces spread so much. they trend to be concentrated in narrower areas and can be surrounded easily. with hackers, mines, camo troops it would be hard to clean a wide or make harm to the enemy orderpool. That precisely why blindless stomping with a HI core on mid table is such a double edged strategy. and that's why I prefer Liuxing, Mowang, Krit or zenchas to make alpha strikes. I even try infiltration tries on PH13-3 with the zencha some times. It definitely has the tools to make the job of a superior infiltrator (but with a poor chance) while It struggles trying to aproach and shoot a simple TR bot while a regular skirmisher doesn't

    I'm not saying Invinible army sucks. I'm just explaining my point of view on how the sectorial works. It's goods and It's not so goods.
    You can try to chase the area denial and compromise a huge part of the list toward's it, but I feel it's a fools task. It's pretty clear the core of a "HI-Limited number of assets" concept works directly against it. Again, If CB had any interest in enhane our proficency in that area, the obvious answer is less troops more presence or less troops more quality towards they're asigned tasks. One troop 3 camo markers (via mines, or via decoys) or High grade troops that are specially good on their job. Like mary problems, mirmidons, interventors... you'll feel deeper bitterness wuen you try to carelessly move a fireteam with krit and a random oblivion makes your 40 engineer a glorified HI cheerleader. krit profile is hard calling for the veteran skill. the simplicity of the invincible army is only in appearance
     
    #71 Mc_Clane, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
  12. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Characters done and with that the individual units are finished. I will now add basic fireteams overviews and then add your list concepts and ideas.
     
  13. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the efforts. I kinda do not agree 100% with many things, and can´t wait to have to free time and share some -constructive of course!- thoughts in here.
     
  14. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Feel free to give your input, the whole effort is for the community to help newcomers to the sectorial.
     
  15. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! And to find ideas and ways to use the different units! I would say that most of my disagreements with the current text is about application and playstyle :)
     
  16. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    I would add to Tai Sheng's entry that she's the only trooper in the sectorial who is BS14 and capable of joining a Core link, giving her an effective BS17 with a B4 Mk12 or Breaker Combi, which goes up to 20 in good rangebands. By itself it doesn't make her amazing, but it sweetens the existing kit she brings to the team with NCO, FO, Flash Pulse, and optional tinbot or chain of command.

    The Breaker combi may have less raw damaging capacity and shorter range than the Mk12, but if the rest of her kit fits well into a Core link then she's a good supplementary tool for handling certain kinds of targets within 32", and if you're expecting lots of targets where a Normal-ammo weapon is good then her high BS and B4 DAM15 means her Mk12 is a nice, cheap alternative to an HMG if your list is short of SWC.

    She's also the cheapest BS14 trooper you can get in IA, as the alternatives are the Hac Tao, Yan Huo, or Guijia—the next best thing is a combat REM with Assisted Fire.

    I think Krit will tend to be a better NCO wildcard in a Haris, or his FTO Feuerbach in a Core meant to engage at range, but in a mobile heavy infantry Core link Tai Sheng might edge him out for combat effectiveness, especially if you're bringing Chung-Hee or another engineer already.
     
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  17. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    Some low-member fireteams that seem interesting to my eyes

    Duos:
    • 61p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot+PangoFTO: Cheap attacking vector with area denial defense and Direct templates
    • 85-88p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot+Hulang: Relatively cheap attaking vector and allground speialist. has some sort of way to deal with hackers and is a deent way to advane with the hulang to the middle of the table
    • 85p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot +KritFTOmulti: Similar to the above one but without stealth. negative status control, more resistance and a NCO
    • 78-79p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot +Cief Chung-hee :

    • 87p 1.5cap Yanhuo HMC+Hulang combi or
      81-83p 1-1.5cap MowangNCO+Hulang SMG: Hulang provides close range defense, and specialist in both cases while the big guy provides advancing support. hulang can try move on the open, deal with hacking menaces... good combo
    • 77p 1.5cap Yanhuo HMC+Chief Chung-hee: Yanhuo provides advancing Firepower while chief chung-hee provides a repeater attacking vector, status effect control, an especialist and and medium range rangebands on a non hackable platform
    • 86p 1.5cap Yanhuo HMC+shangji paramedic: Yanhuo provides advancing Firepower while shangji provides a average CC defense, a BtB healer, and a specialist

    • 111p 1.5cap Guijia +Chief Chung-hee: haking defense+specialist+healer+negative status control+ area denial+ indirect attack vector
    • 121p 1.5cap Guijia +TaiSheng tinbot: hacking defense+specialist+NCO
      (krit version while in between, feels inferior to both)
    Haris
    • 114p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot +HulangFTO SMG +Cheung hee: Polivalent linkteam in every aspect
    • 102p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot +Haidao KH +Cheung hee: Firepower+ Potent Hacking attack vector +Negative status control Indirect haking tool/area denial
    • 106p 1.5cap ShangJesus APHMGtinbot +zuyong paramedic +Cheung hee: Firepower+ BtB healer +Negative status control +Indirect haking tool/area denial

    • 117p 1.5cap Yanhuo MHMG+TA zuyong tinbot+shangji paramedic: Firepower advancing platform with healing and hacking defense. The shangji can provide a little defense against CC shenenigans with template and higher CC value
    • 108p 1.5cap Yanhuo MHMG+TA zuyong tinbot+Cheung hee: Firepower advancing platform with healing, decent reactive and hacking defense
      (ALT: 105p Yanhuo MHMG+TA zuyong tinbot+Krit FTO) abandoning hacking defense to have a NCO
    • 88p 1.5cap Yanhuo MHMG+TA zuyong paramedic+Pango FTO: abandoning passive hacking defense for cheaper attacking vector with healing

    • 82p 1.5cap Yanhuo ML+TA zuyong paramedic+Pango FTO: Defensive Static Firepower without sacrificing active
    EDIT: I'm struggling to fit the FO shangji inside appealing low member fireteams. It's another TA order on top of a specialist, but I'm not sure if that's enough by itself...
     
    #77 Mc_Clane, Dec 9, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
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  18. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Fireteams done

    Sorry guys, had a busy endyear and wasnt able to finish up the tactica, hopefully ill get it done this week.

    Interesting insight mclane
     
    #78 Greysturm, Jan 6, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2021
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  19. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I have the feeling that you're mixing quite some things here and getting out of the point.
    1. I don't think "unique" describes the situation accurately. NCO is kind of a high cost tool 4points for the possibility of diverting 1-2 Lt orders you're already paying elsewere (in rooster spaces and in other fashions). Paying NCO also provides some kind of protection for your LT since it will not be on the frontlines. On the other hand the more NCO troops you pay, the less benefit you get from it. and thus, It's difficult to justify paying for more than one troop with it.
    2. Chung hee doesn't make tai better choice, it just takes krit off. Invincible has lot's of spearheads for it's fireteams and Tai is just the option in the middle.
    3. I think you're talking about FO and not about spotlight. I wonder if that's gonna be a thing... taking out that +3 rangeband to mark a target in ARO seems less survival likely. I would take the flash pulse or the MK12 before that FO one almost always.
      The only situation I would probably consider to use the FO, is in active turn agains a vanilla TAG like a jotum or a vanilla HI like a sogarat.
      If you were actually talking about spotlight, and asuming you pack up at least a normal hacker, an at least an advanced repeater or a zencha hacker... well that Son-bae situation might be a thing... but Tai wouldn't be part of it.
    4. Chain of command is good. but kind of works on the oposite direction of NCO. It's good to be able to use LT order on the fireteam after chain of command triggers... but: 1)you're risking your second LT since tai will probably gonna be midtable deep, 2) you're paying 9 points for that perk.
    5. All the zuyongs have "twin" Breaker pistols if you really need that breaker. MK12 brings +2 damage (same as taking out ARM2) and a wider rangeband so I allways end up taking the Mk12.
    6. I trend to bring tinbots via shang-ji or TA zuyong, paying twice for the tinbot is another overcost. I don't like that profile so much, even against ariadna or nomads.
    Invincible is an army that really struggles with costs and troop specialization. Tai doesn't bring so much specialization it brings overlaping with other troops and overcosts. In N3 I've just taken her purely for those stun grenades on top of the NCO. A good thing to take care of supressive fires with a mere speculative. A decent way of nullifiyin Close range on Mirmidons... Now in N4 I'm struggling to find a place for her

    I feel she needs something unique instead of that tinbot. smoke or eclipse, a grenade launcher of some sort, a +3 for forward observer rolls,... anything

    I just love MOWANG but I feel it still need's some extra context in the sectorial

    That flammenspeer/panzerfaust is okish, but it would be better it ther were more troops in the sectorial carriying that kind of weapons. We've previusly been talking about IA struggling to deal with stuff (mimetism, marksmanship, camouflaged troops, increased reaction, fireteams,...). Coordinated orders are one of the natural tools to deal with hard stuff, but invinible is not prone to that kind of tatic since that cheap expendable weapons are locked down behind relatively expensive profiles (zencha, mowang, and leigong) and is hard to plan and strategize arround it.
    In that category it would be really interesting to get Yaofang remotes inside invincible on the future. but for now we are frequently penalized to break fireteams or making 2 member coordinated orders to try this common strategy :cry:
     
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  20. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    Anecdotally, I'm pretty sure Krit Kokram's FD8 profile is the best NCO in IA, and I'm strongly considering him for some vanilla lists.

    I know it might be weird saying that about a forward deploying trooper with a shotgun and no vis mods, but his Santa sack full of equipment and universally applicable skillset makes him a toolbox like IA simply did not have in N3. He's fast, his shotgun does insane damage, and his load out is custom built to apply as much pressure as possible to enemy heavies. I never feel like he's a wasted slot and how well I'm doing in a game is directly related to how long he lasts. I strongly recommend IA players who may have been sleeping on him because of his N3 profile to give him another look, he had a massive glow up in N4 and I consider him on the same tier as the Shang Ji.
     
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