So to dismount, you need to: Use a skill with the Movement Label. Use it as the first Short Skill of the Order or an Entire Order Skill. If I declare activate the TAG, spend a Regular Order and declare Dodge **with the Pilot** then it meets those requirements. How is this handled? (ie where and when is the Model placed, how do you ARO etc) Follow-up, the general movement skills prevent you declaring a Movement Skill while Engaged to dismount the Pilot from the Engaged TAG. This restriction does not apply to Dodge (it's not a Movement Skill) and in any event its permitted to declare Dodge while Engaged. So the rules permit activate the TAG **which is in the Engaged State** , spend a Regular Order and declare Dodge **with the Pilot** How is this handled? (ie where and when is the Model placed, how do you ARO etc) Opinion: dismounting using Dodge simply doesn't work and isn't intended to work so neither of the above should be permitted by the rules because there's no practical way of handling them.
The part in red is where you're writing gibberish. What you're attempting to do is start resolving the movement of the Dodge (how you're planning on dismounting) when the Dodge rules state that nothing for movement is declared or resolved until after the Dodge roll succeeds. Look bullet point five in Dodge, where it calls out that the movement must follow the General Movement Rules. That's where you're "performing" the Dodge. Stop trying to perform premature declaration of the Dodge movement. Like it says in Dodge, that movement is "Is measured, declared, and the Trooper moved, during the Effects step of the Order Expenditure Sequence". Looking at the General Movement Rules, the procedure for mounting or dismounting is incompatible with the proceedure for moving using Dodge: Mounting and dismounting: By performing any Skill with the Movement Label, a Trooper may mount or dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. The Trooper must mount or dismount at the start of the Order, after having declared the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order, but before measuring any movement. In the Order Expenditure Sequence, for every other Movement skill except Dodge, the movement is declared and resolved when the skill is declared. You are, in other words, performing the movement skill immediately. For Dodge, you don't perform the movement at the end of the order. In other words, there is no "ARO Dodge dismount" or "ARO Dodge mount" allowed. Nor is there a "Dodge dismount" or "Dodge mount" allowed" because Dodge doesn't get performed at the required time.
Not sure I agree with Solkan's reading...yet? I suspect that the below process might also be the case, but there's an "it depends." A dismounted TAG is a valid target, but can't use orders or ARO, so it's not clear whether the Engaged state persists when the Pilot dismounts while the TAG is in CC. I think it should, since there's nothing that says the dismounted TAG enters a state that ends Engaged, plus the Dodge roll to disengage would be unopposed. Bonus points for how it's cinematically cool to be able to lock your TAG's hands around an enemy in a brawl, then pop the hatch and climb out while your armor suit pins the enemy in place. I don't think this is likely to be a smart play, but I think it could be done: 1 - Activation: Declare that you are activating the TAG. 1.2 - First short skill: Declare Dodge, declare that since Dodge has the Movement label you're dismounting at the start of the Order, place the Pilot anywhere in base contact with the TAG model. 2 - First ARO: Enemy that is Engaged* with the TAG may declare any Engaged ARO (Dodge, CC, etc.); this may be to CC the TAG model, which is a valid target even post-dismount, or a Dodge to try and GTFO of Engaged. 3 - Second short skill: Declare Move to run the Pilot away! Measure movement path and declare end location. 4 - Second ARO: Hidden sniper ARO BS Attack to kill the Pilot when she rounds a corner. 5 - ARO check: Both are valid. 6 - Resolution: The Engaged enemy resolves either CC or Dodge; since the TAG model didn't declare any skills, and the Pilot model isn't the target of CC, it's an unopposed roll either way. The hidden sniper's BS Attack is FtF vs. the Pilot's Dodge roll. 6.1 - Effects: If the Pilot succeeds, she survives and gets to use her Dodge movement, if the sniper succeeds the Pilot has to resolve the resulting saving rolls. 6.2 - Conclusion: If the Pilot is hit and survives, she resolves a Guts check. *If Engaged ends with the dismount, then the enemy in Silhouette contact with the TAG can declare anything, but a smart Pilot would likely pop out on the far side of her TAG and use it to body-block the enemy to deny a BS Attack ARO. This works because Dodge movement isn't declared until end of sequence, so the TAG model hasn't declared any actual movement and therefore still blocks LoS. Something similar might be plausible in ARO, except for the thing in the General Movement Rules that says you dismount at the start of an Order, which implies (but isn't explicit about) that you can only mount/dismount during your active turn.
@solkan, I understand that you're arguing that for a mount / dismount to be valid it needs to be performed during the first Short Skill or as an entire order skill. I completely agree with that (see the opinion I expressed in the OP). As you point out that's arguably also what the rules say: "The Trooper must mount or dismount at the start of the Order, after having declared the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order, but before measuring any movement." So - for clarity - are we saying that the correct interpretation for Mount and Dismount is: "The Trooper must [perform the] mount or dismount at the start of the Order, after having declared the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order, but before measuring any movement." This then limits mount / dismount to only those skills with the Movement Label where that movement is performed during Steps 1.2 or 3.
@wes-o-matic that action would allow you to break out of Engaged with TAGs trivially. Also, the model Engaged with the TAG wouldn't stop being Engaged (none of the cancellation clauses or Engaged are met). So if that is legal, then absolutely jumping a Gecko Pilot out of an Engaged TAG with LOF to the Trooper Engaged with the TAG to poor B5 Assault Pistols into them would be viable (albeit it would take a minimum of 2 orders to get the TAG up and running again). I honestly just don't think that's the intent. Mostly because I don't think that placing the Pilot on the table at Step 1.2 is supported by the Rules. Also, as you point out, that would be viable in ARO (place the Pilot in B2B with the TAG on declaration): so the fact that the rules limit it to active indicate to me that it's not intended.
From the GMRs: - The Skill with the Movement Label must be one that can be declared by the original profile. For example if the Trooper is in Engaged State or an IMM State at the start of the Order, they cannot declare a Movement Skill to mount or dismount, Dodge is a Movement Skill that can be declared while in the Engaged or IMM-A state, but the GMRs say that while in those states, you can't declare a Movement Skill to mount or dismount. I'd say it follows that Dodge can't be used to mount or dismount.
Dodge is not a Movement Skill. It is a Short Skill with the Movement Label. These are different things. Compare Discover, which is a Short Movement Skill without the Movement Label. https://infinitythewiki.com/Discover
Huh, interesting. There are three types of active turn skills: Short Movement Skill, Short Skill, and Entire Order Skill. So, what's a Movement Skill? It's not any of the types of skills. I was assuming that "Movement Skill" in the GMRs referred to any skill with the Movement label. That would seem consistent with the GMR bullet I quoted, which refers to "Skill with the Movement Label" and "Movement Skill" in the same breath. But I'm open to other interpretations, what are you proposing? (Also, you can't dismount by declaring Discover, presumably.)
This is the only time the rules use the phase Movement Skill rather than the term Short Movement Skill. So there's no precedent for reading it as "Skill with the Movement Label" or "Short Movement Skill" : I have always read it as the later because of the similar construction. However, "The Skill with the Movement Label must be one that can be declared by the original profile. For example if the Trooper is in Engaged State or an IMM State at the start of the Order, they cannot declare a [Skill with he Movement Label] to mount or dismount" does not make sense as a way to preclude the Pilot declaring Dodge while mounted in an Engaged TAG. Dodge is a skill that the TAG can validly declare while Engaged. So the first sentence (to which the second is an example) does not stop you declaring Dodge with the Pilot. Whereas that rule DOES make sense for precluding all Short Movement Skills with Movement Labels: an Engaged TAG can not validly declare any of those. Aside: Discover doesn't interact with the GMRs because it lacks the Movement Label. So no, you can't declare Discover to dismount a TAG.
Why not? Emphasis mine, obvs. Dodge is a Skill with the Movement label, so it's eligible under the rules. Check. In the active turn, if an unengaged TAG declares Move and Move for its two Short Skills in an Order, the rules say that you have to place the Pilot after the first Short Skill declaration and before any movement is measured. That's Step 1.2 of the OES, by definition. If that same TAG declared Dodge (dismount) and Move with that Order, what's different aside from the need to make a PH roll during Step 6 to see if you get Dodge movement during Step 6.1? It's not even complicated by which profile to use, since by declaring a dismount you know you use the Pilot profile for the whole Order.
Yeah - I kinda was coming around you realising that. Simply by declaring the skill as the fist skill or the order or as an entire order you are permitted to place the model on the table. Unfortunately, "must mount or dismount" doesn't actually tell you what to do, which adds to the confusion. In Motorcycle, it tells you to do the following: "When a Trooper on a Motorcycle declares any Skill with the Movement Label and announces he will Dismount, replace the mounted figure with a Motorcycle Token (MOTORCYCLE). Place the Trooper's Model in Silhouette contact with the Motorcycle Token, or measure his movement from the edge of the Token's base, as you prefer." Which permits the placement as a result of announcing the Trooper will dismount. If you require the placement as a result of an announcement that the Trooper will Dismount as part of a Dodge, I can't see an issue. That interpretation mostly work equally for an ARO Dodge. But that certainly seems to be counter to the way rules function (ie. 'first Short Skill or Entire Order with the Movement Label' not 'ARO, Short Skill or Entire Order with the Movement Label'). OTOH, arguably the fact that an invalid ARO would result in an Idle (and an Idle doesn't allow for mounting /dismounting) would be a reason to disqualify ARO Dodge but permit active Dodge as a way to mount / dismount. So yeah, your interpretation seems feasible if awkward. This is how it works for Move + Dodge: 1.2 The Trooper declares Moves and the Pilot dismounts, *places model*, measures movement, moves model. 2. AROs 3. The Trooper declares Dodge 4. AROs 5. Check validity of AROs 6. Roll, measure and move the Dodge And this should work for Dodge + Move: 1.2 The Trooper declares Dodge and the Pilot dismounts, *places model*. 2. AROs 3. The Trooper declares Move, measures distance and then performs the Move. 4. AROs 5. Check validity of AROs 6. Roll, measure and move the Dodge
This has partly been covered up-thread, but your starting point is wrong. Mounting and dismounting: By performing any Skill with the Movement Label, a Trooper may mount or dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. My emphasis. You need to perform a Skill with the Movement Label as the first Skill of the Order. As Solkan and others have pointed out, you can’t do that with Dodge.
Cool that makes sense. I mean that sentence doesn't necessarily tie to the timing of when you have to declare it, so it's not overly clear but it's clear enough. Cheers!
