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what happens to peripherals(control) if spearhead enters null state?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Lesh', Sep 28, 2020.

  1. Lesh'

    Lesh' Infinity LATVIA
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    Question regarding puppet-tactica

    What happens if Peripheral(control) Spearhead of its Control Unit enters Null or Unconscious state? Other members go into Disconnected State? Can you still activate controler to remove this state if they go in Disconnected state? How is supposed to be played? in N3 they had Number2 skill.
     
  2. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    As per Peripheral (Control) on p108,

    • If a Peripheral (Control) Trooper fails a Coherency Check, breaking Coherency with the Spearhead of its Control Unit, it will enter Disconnected State immediately, before measuring any declared movement.
    • If the Disconnected Trooper passes a Coherency Check with the Spearhead of its Control Unit at the end of an Order or ARO, its Disconnected State is immediately cancelled.
     
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  3. Jenian Katarn

    Jenian Katarn G:Synchronized

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    Number 2 is for Fireteams, has nothing to do here as you well know..

    Peripheral(Control) are Peripherals. In their description it states that there is no limit to operating distance between the Trooper with Peripheral(Control) and their Controller. It is also stated that when the Controller goes into Null or Uncounscious State, the Peripherals go into Disconnected State. If you somehow get the Controller back from Null State, then those Peripheral's recover from the Disconnected State as they are within the Controller's "no limit operating distance" again. This is clear I bet.

    Peripheral(Control) model with the Spearhead Token is not the Controller. Its purpose is just to be the model which does the Skill of the group and from which Coherency Check is measured. I think what you are thinking here is what to do when the model with Spearhead Token goes into Null State? Null state by itself doesn't tell that the rest of the Peripheral(Control) models go into Disconnected State as they are still within the Controller's control area. However what makes this interesting is the Coherency Check. Disconnected State specifically says that Peripherals enter Disconnected State if a) The Peripheral fails a Coherency Check, b) The Controller of the Trooper is in a Null state or c) the Peripheral is subject to a successful Attack or Effect of an Ammunition, Hacking Program, condition, or Scenario Specific Rule that specifies that it causes this state. So based on what the Disconnected State description we are clear from a) and c) so what counts is the part b). If the model is in Null state, can we do Coherency Check? Technically yes, as the model is on table and it has the Spearhead Token next to it (nothing has yet removed the Spreahead Token from the model and the model is still on the table). But what happens if the model is in Dead State as the model is removed from the table. At this point there is no model from which to do Coherency Check from. So do they automatically fail the Coherency Check thus making the other models in Control Unit to end up in Disconnected State?

    Now when the next activation of the Controller comes, it is stated that you must choose a model in your Control Unit which will act as the Spearhead and place Sperahead Token next to it. So you should be able (must actually - it is a strong word) to choose new Spearhead. Disconnected State just states that Peripherals in this state cannot execute Orders or AROs but nothing specifically stops the Controller from choosing a new Spearhead from the Peripherals in the Disconnected State. Now what is peculiar to me from rules regarding the Coherency Check for Peripheral(Control) and cancellation of Disconnected State is that they come back from Disconnected State at the end of the Order/ARO if they succeed the Coherency Check.

    I would interpret this so that if you lost the Spearhead model in some previous activation of the unit thus making the other Peripherals in the Control Unit be in Disconnected State, you can activate the Contoller with another order. Activating the Controller makes it compulsory to place the Spearhead Token next to one of your Control Unit members even if it is in Disconnected State at this point thus making it to be a model with Spearhead Token. This would not activate those Control Unit members in this order (as Disconnected State says they cannot execute Orders or AROs) - I think this is bit similar to how Proxy Active -marker works with Posthumans. Your Controller can do what it likes at this point for this order activation as it is the only member who can act and generate ARO's at this point. At the end of the order the coherency is checked for the Peripherals. At this point they would cancel the Disconnected State because they are (hopefully) in range of the new model with Spearhead Token thus making them able to act in next activation. It basically takes one order to re-establish your Control Unit.

    So. Are the Peripheral(Control) models Disconnected if their Spearhead dies/goes into Null state?
    - If no, I'd say that the controller just chooses new Spearhead of those that are left. I think this is what was the intention for the rule in the first place. That mention between Coherency Check and Disconnect State is there to make sure you don't overspread or forget your troops all around the field.
    - However, if yes, then are they Disconnected from the point of view of their Controller? Can the Controller actually name a new Spearhead? This line of thinking feels too convoluted to be honest if intention was to simplify.

    @ijw do you have an idea on this?
     
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  4. Jenian Katarn

    Jenian Katarn G:Synchronized

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    Oh. You managed to answer just few minutes before me. I took me quite a while to write that.
     
  5. Weran

    Weran Member

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    So. Are the Peripheral(Control) models Disconnected if their Spearhead dies/goes into Null state?
    - If no, I'd say that the controller just chooses new Spearhead of those that are left. I think this is what was the intention for the rule in the first place. That mention between Coherency Check and Disconnect State is there to make sure you don't overspread or forget your troops all around the field.
    - However, if yes, then are they Disconnected from the point of view of their Controller? Can the Controller actually name a new Spearhead? This line of thinking feels too convoluted to be honest if intention was to simplify.

    @ijw do you have an idea on this?
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    If you nominate a new (Disconnected) Spearhead, is that Peripheral within the ZoC of the Spearhead (aka itself)?

    Yes, so they will leave Disconnected State at the end of the Order.
     
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  7. Gunmage

    Gunmage General Contact Unit

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    So, basically, if you lose the Spearhead model - you now have to spend an order to reactivate the rest, correct? Wow, Puppets were nerfed more than I thought.
     
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    That's an unclear interaction, good one to note for all Nomad players.

    On the upside, Supp Fire with 4 models for a single command token when going second and you don't lose orders if three of them are killed... reeeeeal powerful.
     
  9. terrordactyl

    terrordactyl High Commander, Sword of Allah, Concilium Prima
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    Does the new nominated Spearhead just Idle since "► A Peripheral in [Disconnected] State cannot execute Orders or AROs." or can it perform an action with that order?
     
  10. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    On the other hand, it's enough to take out just the spearhead or the controller to turn them all disconnected.

    It idles, then, at the end of the order it passes the coherency check and cancels the disconnnected state.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So this makes it so that 1 Master + 1 Puppet is best.

    Can we have AVA2 in TJC? Please :)
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Is it just me reading this incorrectly, or can you make a successful coherency check if the spearhead is unconscious but still on the table?

    (If so, this is only relevant for Puppets and 'podes; other synchronised elements, and fireteams, all have clauses covering the spearhead or link leader or controller entering a null state)
     
  13. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    I'm going with that as Unconscious State disables automatic skills, that puppetbot can't be a spearhead.

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Unconscious_State
     
  14. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Are you positing that going unconscious causes a puppet or antipode to cease being a member of the control unit? I don't hate that interpretation, although it could fall either way.
     
  15. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    I think that being part of the control unit is an effect of Peripheral and:
    • Automatic Special Skills and Automatic Equipment have no effect while Unconscious.
    Also it doesn't break that a disconnected peripheral(control) can be the spearhead and pass the coherency check.
     
  16. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    You really have to read that as ending in “unless otherwise specified.” Otherwise you end up claiming NWI doesn’t work, among other things. Seeing as the NWI trooper is in the Unconscious state when they activate that automatic skill.
     
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  17. Ayaxs

    Ayaxs Crane agent, Yuandun division.
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    I think that is a poor example as NWI has a special timing when entering Unconscious, makes it work like normal state and allows Automatic Skills and equipment to work.
     
  18. Lawson

    Lawson Well-Known Member

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    It was pitched to me recently that yes - since unconscious cancels automatic skills and equipment, the Spearhead may lose the Peripheral (Control) skill as a side effect of going unconscious, in which case there would be no way for it to retain the Spearhead token and the other Peripherals would disconnect at the end of the order.

    It also seems that there's still disagreement on whether RAW actually prevents the Activation of the Disconnected peripherals. When their controller spends an order and activates to re-start the Control Group. The disconnected peripherals obviously can't execute skills since they are in a Null State, but spending an order, activating an "Antipode Assault Pack" and declaring any skill with the controller as a necessary part of placing the spearhead on a new Antipode matches the criteria for provoking AROs.

    It's relatively unprecedented to have Null troops motivate AROs, to the point that I feel like this may be wholly unintended by the designers, but the RAW seems clear to me if unintuitive.

    There is a huge difference it seems between the way many people play Peripheral (Control) very fast and loose with assignment of Spearhead (I've been told this is because they are used to playing it a certain way in N3) which makes losing the Spearhead during an activation trivial, and the RAW N4 way which would cause the control group to become disconnected immediately if the Spearhead goes unconscious and then require spending a whole order just to reassign the spearhead and getting diced by AROs in the process.

    @Mahtamori I know you were reticent to make this an unsanswered question when it was originally brought up because Peripheral (Control) is a somewhat rare skill. But for players who use Antipodes or Puppet-Tactica, it may come up in every single one of their games and the advantage or disadvantage of playing one way or another will be asymmetrically applied to just one player in such a way that could cause strong disagreements. I'd love to see Peripheral (Control) functionality added to unanswered questions. In spite of what I believe to be the RAW, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the current functionality of the rule is completely unintended by the designers.
     
  19. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I agree that it's unanswered, and I'm not sure that "limited scope" should be a reason not to add a question to the Unanswered Questions list. At this point, the main functions of the Unanswered Questions list are to (1) avoid repeated threads on questions that can't be resolved without a FAQ, and (2) flag questions for CB to hopefully fix with a FAQ or the Living Ruleset. Neither purpose is undermined by adding a question that may not come up very often.

    Also, Puppetbots go unsconsious a lot so I'm not convinced the scope of the question is actually that limited.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm sick with Covid atm so I'm having problems concentrating on lengthy posts. What's the question that IJW hasn't already answered?

    Keep in mind that the Peripheral isn't losing the skill, the Peripheral's skill will cease have an effect if the Peripheral goes unconscious which isn't the same. The Spearhead Marker won't be moved unless you use a skill or effect that tells you to move it and it won't be removed unless a skill or effect causes it (or the trooper) to be removed - going Unconscious is not such an effect, but Dead is.

    Note that Disconnected does not suspend the effect of Automatic Equipment. This is a special effect of several Null states, but not of the state being a Null state.
     
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