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Al Fasid

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by Bassie, Nov 2, 2020.

  1. Bassie

    Bassie Member

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    I bought in to infinity when Red Veil was released. It was my first purchase, and Al Fasid one of my favourite models.

    I am not sure how to 'make him work' (specifically the HMG version. I don't have the HRL). He seems expensive, esp in comparison with Shakush (who is 5pts more).
    I understand that Fasid is a bit of a toolbox. BS13 smoke grenade launcher, minelayer, sixth sense. But it seems really hard to justify all those things. Shakush is specialised assault piece.

    Tell me why you love him, I want to as well (this isn't a whinge, I actually expect that someone out there will make him 'click' for me.
     
  2. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    The HRL is the more effective profile. It's actually defensive. Put him in suppression fire with the SMG. This way if they are under 24 you get the full benefit of suppressing fire, and when AROing over 24 inches you drop suppressing fire and use the HRL. The minelayer is a good way to protect their flank from stealthy CC guys or hackers who want to break the Suppressing fire. Multi wound and high ARM makes for a tough nut to crack in F2F normally, add the rest and its order intensive to move him out of the way.

    I think the HMG can in theory do the same thing, and drop smoke as a blocker when over 24 inches. But I think the template weapon has more potential in ARO. The HMG has a better potential as an offensive unit, using smoke to blocking LOS until it can get better range\angle on the target. Pair it with and MSV unit works well, but there are cheaper options for smoke.
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I can see some appeal to him for smoke now that the grenade launcher has a 0 band out to 24". It's true that there are cheaper sources of smoke, but you might not want to spend any of your 15 slots on them, especially not in Vanilla. If the table has a good spot for him, you can position him to deliver smoke to quite a lot of area, and such a position will also be good for the HMG in your active turn. In ARO he's not great, but can at least force your opponent to waste a couple of orders, then guts into total cover. DZ Minelayer is more valuable in N4 than it was in N3.

    Much like the Shakush, his HMG isn't that impressive - there are lots of snipers he won't want to fight. But you can ignore most of those by smoking them out. That just leaves MSV snipers - and most of them are fairly reasonable targets for the Fasid's HMG.

    He is a lot of points, though.
     
  4. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    If, and when, we decide that our glass is half full, there are things I've found going for the HMG Al Fasid. Being a tough HMG platform I find myself engaging with him more on the active turn than I would with the Zhayendan HMG for example - I'm not too worried about losing a face to face after all... If you can build a list that ends up having 14 orders and you've got the points for him, you're no more shooting yourself in the foot anymore by taking him either.

    The combination of diverse a weapon loadout, Sixth Sense and PH14 means that he can be pretty active on the reactive turn too: you've got lot's of guns/mines to choose from and always dodging on 14s is pretty great... He's the type of model that most of the opponents really struggle to catch flatfooted - there's pretty much always something to do to eat more orders and cause new problems... And unlike the Shakush, he can't be possessed and turned against you or isolated! He's a great datatracker too - he can do quite a few of the ITS11 classifieds and he's a high value order when the DT gets and extra one!
     
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  5. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Al fasid is out of place you can do the same and better with jenizaro hmg BS14 + ghulam NCO for 56 points 3 more than al fasid but with 3 orders instead of 1.

    I think N4 has destroyed the dying al fasid, in N3 was hard to play and now in N4 with no point reducction comparing with the other faccions S5 profiles and hacking better than never he left behind. I'ts just a expensive glass tool box, when we got lots of options to substitute him.

    The HRL gets +1B, 0 point reducction could work, but we are paying a lot for that 1 burst.

    Anyway if Azrail gets "buff" there will be no it won't make sense to play al fasid, let's see this month.

    it is a pity because I love the al fasids models but I have to admit that they are bad(because they are expensive).
     
  6. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    This seems like a bit of an exaggeration. His HMG is nearly identical to a Janissary's, but his smoke is +3 BS compared to the Ghulam's, which is significant if you don't want to burn extra orders trying to land your smoke. Minelayer is also significant. (He also has more minor advantages over the Janissary, +1ARM, Sixth Sense, immune to Oblivion).

    Having it all in one package is, in N4, a potential advantage given the 15-order cap. Also if your smoke thrower is important, Al Fasid is harder to assassinate than the Ghulam.

    There were plenty of good players who used him in N3, and he's gotten better in N4. He never appealed to me, but I'd bet there will be players who'll still get good use out of him.

    You literally just called an ARM 5 Sixth Sense Veteran Minelayer HI "glass." How durable would he have to be to satisfy you? He's got plenty of downsides, but surely fragility isn't one of them.
     
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  7. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget he also dodges on a 14. He is not my style and he is expensive, but it seems like he was built to be resilient and contain a lot of ways to drain an opponent's orders.
     
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  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The Al Fasid is an excellent proxy for a Shakush while waiting for the Shakush to arrive.
     
  9. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    Well it's just +2 BS compared to the ghulam's and you don't spend extra orders because you are using NCO.

    obviously al fasid is harder to kill than a ghulam, the point here is that you don't "waste" any order for smoke, however al fasid at least in my experince can't handle midfield with sixth sense, any camo with boarding shoutgun or shoutgun can kill him easly and now this isn't better with the 2 direct templates, so it's better to pick jenizaro HMG and shoot BS14 to the objectives in sight. there's no need to go insite midfield you suposed to have some alhawwa, farzan, libertos, tuareg, daylamis to control that site. And nahab/ragiks/bashi/fidays to kill key targets. You speak about immune to Oblivion just take a barid and don't let jenizaro go more than 16 inches, if your opponent want to waste his turn moving and hacking he will lose all turn for doing that.

    I call it glass for these reasons going midfield with him exposes you losing one of your spearhead on easy mode. It's not about durable it's about costs in points, we are trusting him 53 point list when other factions got their own S5 with "3 wounds" or NCO etc... just compare the cost about mowang, yan huo, dayokai sogarat etc...
     
  10. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Who said anything about advancing Al Fasid to the midfield? It sounds like you're just playing him wrong, man.
     
  11. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    You should try him out.

    When you want mines to cover your backside, when you need smoke to stop that damn annoying sniper from shooting half a dozen times, when your order helps something else move after you go into Loss of Lieutenent/Retreat, when Surprise shot doesn't drop your stats totally in the toilet, when you can't cram those five guys in the same body.

    Maybe it's just not your thing in the end. Maybe what your local guys play makes it ineffective.

    That's the nice thing about Infinity. Choices.
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    There are a lot of models whose utility in at least some circumstances is a hill that I'll die on, but I'm honestly struggling to think what a local meta might play that would make the Al Fasid anything but ineffective at its price point. Unlinked MSV1-based smoke shooting, maybe?

    Edit: also it's probably not a bad piece of kit against really ham use of impersonators and superior infiltrators. Both the mine and ability to reposition against movement inside ZOC effectively is an asset there, although still very expensive for that, but you could get use out of him engaging things like Shas links and defences.

    Edit edit: and in that vein being a veteran is germane specifically against spiral imposters with E/M mines.

    Man that's some thin utility space though.
     
    #12 RobertShepherd, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  13. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
    Warcor

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    Armour 5, two wounds, access to the best LI doctor available.

    He’s not really that fragile.

    I was playing both loadouts quite a bit in N3, and think they work very well. The HMG is a good data tracker in missions like Unmasking, and with the ability to spotlight reliably, he should pair well with your Al Hawaa and Touareg to root out those nasty mimetism skirmishers.

    I need to play with the HRL more since his buffs, but he seems like he might be a Vanilla answer to link teams. Burst 2 as a coordinated spear head...nice.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Maybe I'll sound boring, because I've already written this, but I've used most of the Haqq units in N3 and really liked playing our fatties in some local tournaments. Even played with 2 Azzies and 2 Fasids and Tarik and Jan Akbar Doc in 350pts YAMS tournament.
    I had some nice games with Als, my HRL guy burnt Joan after few orders of shooting and not hitting, finally landing 2 crits on 13s and killing her. Also HRL survived a few orders of attacks from Guarda de Assaulto just to kill him with SMG in my turn.
    But those are just random fun situations.

    And while I liked them and had rather good results with them, I came to a conclusion, that I prefer AzRa'il AP HMG over Fasid HMG and Fasid HRL over Azzie Feuerbach.

    And in N4 I see less reasons to use Fasids. They are really expensive, and while they got slightly better thanks to movement, CC, or the unleveled Sixth Sense, they also lost the ability to wait with their ARO, which was important. I had some nice shots with Fasids LGL in N3, but now with no +3 range I think it will be harder to do...
    And Janissary has better BS and is so much cheaper.

    I suggest you try Fasids for yourself, maybe you'll like them. But they don't seem to be the easy option.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings


    P.S. I hope we get new, cheap AzRa'ils in near future. Just give them Courage, maybe ARM 6, and nothing more, let them be the economic version of Haqq armour hunters.
     
  15. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    I've tried alfasid countless times

    On one hand it does not do anything since it cannot shoot any target. We got better things to move like fidays.

    Or on the other hand they kill him in the first armor roll, the typical mimetism -3 or higher comes with Spitfrie / hmg and goodbye (1-3 orders)

    So I'm going to play the 58 tag or 41 jenizaro hmg, don't want to waste the points in smoke BS13 or sixth sense, minelayer, veteran that are situacional skills that you maybe use them or maybe not. The only thing I know is that 3 wounds with the tag and BS14 with flamethrower you will always use it at some point in the game. When I play al fasid is like I'm wasting the points.
     
  16. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    It comes down to context of the faction you are playing. In vanilla Haqq it's not great. In other sectorals it is better. But I don't see it being top tier in any sectoral.
     
  17. AssaultUnicorn

    AssaultUnicorn KTS is the best unit

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    Fasids are nice against some specific breeds of enemies. For example, he did a pretty good job fending off a Speculo killer who actually got killed in her active turn trying to unroot Fasid from close range. Unfortunately, that was back in N3 when he could delay his AROs against enemies in his ZoC. Now this play wouldn't work, he'd have to declare Dodge or Idle. Unfortunately, in many other games I've had, he's been pretty subpar, mostly because of the dice rolls and not being able to land smoke because there are no +3 range bands. Ultimately, I feel like the HRL option wins here since you'd most certainly include some other high-burst weapon while Burst 3 template weapon is not something anyone can have. Add to that his SMG and he may actually be a semi-decent midfield piece who can cover his advance with mines or plant them around the corner to catch the enemy midfield guys off guard.

    He's in the same boat as Druze. His combination of skills makes you go "wow what a toolbox I already have all those skills on cheaper models". So at this point a long-range burst 3 template weapon is pretty much the only thing that makes him worthwhile for many armies he's in.
     
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  18. exiti

    exiti Mad Scientist Gorilla

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    Sadly, I have not had the chance to use the Al Fasid in N4. However, I had used both profiles in one list. One ITS game had 3 people playing US Ariadna. I had the HMG and HRL move along the table edges dropping mines as they went. I made Van Zant drop in my opponents side of the table twice.
     
  19. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    I think the 45 pts one is legit. Used it sometimes for the "take and hold" missions in n3 such as Quadrant Control and similar. 53 pts for the toolbox is a bit too much though, as more often than not there's something else I want that can do a specific job. However, maybe this is more viable in n4 as you are encouraged to take more expensive stuff in a smaller list.

    Not sure though, he's just hard to use, especially when modern Haqq units are moving away from generalist kind of units to more optimised profiles. Mukhtar, Nadhir, new Asawire for example.
     
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  20. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes you just have to play the models you like for no other reason than that.

    I played 4 games with Druze last month because I just think they are cool and it was fun trying to make them work .

    I lost every game.

    Enjoy the process of restricting yourself in list building , it’s all part of the fun. Or maybe bring him out against newer players as a kind of soft handicap .
     
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