I'd argue that the Taskmaster and buffed TR bot are the only real competition in BJC, the full HMG range bands are quite important (ask any MO player) and I'd never describe a Lizard as "cost effective". In Vanilla, though? No chance, even an Intruder is leagues better.
Most of those deal with Spitfire rangebands. I don't play Bakunin, and I typically don't use any HMGs, but a lot of people like them. Maybe it isn't a great choice but I think people should keep it in their head as a potential option as N4 progresses.
The HMG range bands are less important when you have freely available smoke, and maybe a lizard wasn't cost effective in N3, but in N4 it's less than twice the cost of the Moira, brings twice the orders, three times the wounds, almost three times the armour, has BS14 to offset the ODD and a multi hmg, is eminently repairable (thanks to B3 linked gizmokit that only need 1 success) and can shoot you even if you hide from it. I'd say it's comparatively pretty efficient. The Moira brings a visual mod, but that can be and not unusually is countered (MSV ARO is not an uncommon sight), only improves odds that you should expect to win on anyway in your active, and when it does lose can't take a bad roll (or a DTW) like the Lizard or the Taskmaster (or even the Reaktion) can. I mean you can use it, and maybe it's the best of a bad bunch (of Moiras) but let's not kid ourselves that it's great compared to other things.
That's why I typically don't take an HMG at all except for the Brigada. You can almost never target something that isn't designed to target you back, so unless I can regularly survive an MSR shot I prefer a different solution.
Depends on the situation. Drop AD. Use smoke. Fire a pitcher and carbonite or spotlight them. Use a SK to get under their positive range. Always some sort of strat, firing F2F in their positive range is always plan Z for Correg, and I find I have a better strategy often enough that planning for it isn't worth points. ODD is about the only thing that can give me good enough odds to risk it, but I do prefer armor and wounds.
While I agree with the premise, in a list where you're not otherwise using the LT order, Moira HMGs are also 2 orders. Which - given you can make use of that in a link - I can see the utility of. CG1: Riot Grrl + Mod Core (including LT), Uberfalls CG2: Moira HMG + Healer + Custodier HD+ + support. But honestly, Observance are treated like they're insanely strong and need to be hindered by anti-synergistic choices (see the Custodier HD+ interactions, or the fact you need to give up the HD+ utility to get access to an Upgrade). If it weren't for the fact pretty much all MSV AROs are all core linked, then White Noise + HMG in the same fireteam would be a way to abuse their prevalence. But instead Moiras run smack bang into the fact that SS is worth 6 or 9 BS in the right circumstance. Something needs to be done about Shock. CB needs to realise that Nuns with Guns or Nuns with Swords works: not both.* White Noise needs to lose NFB. Cybermask needs to lose NFB. * Actually optimizing the Healer for CC, Custodiers for Hacking and Moiras for shooting could work at removing the bloat.
Yeah fair enough the Moira does bring a second order too since you'll always bring a LT, but importantly you only get that order on one Moira you bring, meaning there's a lot less incentive to bring two. Meaning there's a lot less incentive to bring an Observance list rather than maybe a couple of Observance models for the heck of it. If you are bringing Custodier Lt (which isn't a bad choice despite her anti synergies IMHO) that makes some sense to join with a Moira HMG. But then a third member for the haris is a bit problematic I think. Healer is just too expensive for what she does, esp compared to say a helper bot on Avicenna. Either Kusnagi multi rifle or Wolfgang could be ok if you want to advance with them late game. But despite that, whatever combination always going to come up with the problem of being very expensive and squishy for what you get due to the intrinsic anti synergies, vulnerabilities and bloat.
I was thinking Vostok + Custodier + Clockmaker would be cool. Then someone reminded me Clockmakers weren't wild cards. Honestly I think probably the only way you redeem the full Core is by adding the Brawler equivalent to Druze: Observance Neophytes: BS11 LSG/SMG, Zapper, Mimmetism (-3).
The Haris could probably be made more than acceptable by including a Sin Eater. Even a Core might be palatable if you had enough uses for the other Observance troops. Would still be vulnerable to Shock, but most of the problematic Shock sources are quite likely to lose a fight with a Sin Eater under Core buffs.
Too bad that will likely never happen if fireteam buffs still apply to Neurocinetics. Still, linkable Sin-Eaters would be a huge upgrade over TR-bot... Spoiler
B6 Kriza happened and wasn't instantly nuked from orbit, so I'm willing to believe anything at this point. Sin Eaters do also sit at the Moira price point, and the Observance links are some of the few in the game that can't be made far cheaper with random Wildcards or favourable mix options, so this theoretical Sin-Eater buff ball would cost about twice what the infamous Kamau link does, which honestly sounds about right.
several people related to the rules staff have stated that linked KB have B6...at the moment. I think it is pretty sure that the B6 think is in its way to be nerfed when fireteams get their rules checked CK lore fits a lot TJC, and they fit the theme. A neophyte unit should be a bit different, CK are way different to what a newbie in the observancy should be in stats and skills.
And? If they were something that was established in the lore a few years back but hadn't appeared in the game yet that argument may hold water but as they are fresh unit appearing out of nowhere, it doesn't. That lore could just as easily be written to be slightly different and have them be in BJC, they are new and had the chance to be anything really, and swap the super jump for mimetism and you have a shiny new observance unit. As for stats CC is pretty much on par with the observance and so is the BS.
You can easilly tie-in that some of them decided to join Reverends/work with Reverends after all that happened. I mean, how much worse than personal harem/cheerleaders filled with pricey illegal implants that just on their own now istead of being put to work (by mafia) or salvaged for parts (by mafia) can it be? Just put a BJC-exclusive logo on them and there you have it, don't even have to make a new unit. And can keep MSV2 profile, will fit N4's msvs everywhere theme just fine.
sorry @Tourniquet , I assummed too much things in your comment and didn't manage to make my point clear. A lot of people complain about their looks that fit much more in BJC, without realising that, both looks and lore fit a lot too in TJC. My mistake. Also, BJC has also some sport-related units, the UFK, so CK could enter BJC too if they tweaked their lore a bit or even get a "subsidiary" unit in there (But I think girls in that situation in BJC would end in the RG) you are right in some of those points, but BS12 is maybe "too much" for neophytes when the big sisters get that already. Maybe if moiras got BS13.. Also, I don't think BJC needs a 15-20 point unit to solve observancy problems, which are mainly a bit of overcost and non-sinergy @Lucian , I have to disagree with that "n4 MSV everywhere". That was allready something in n3... just happened that a few units got more use for their MSV1, and a few others (really, 2 units, one beign new, in a entire faction that only had 3 is not "everywhere") got one. With the CK there have been a lot of complaints to CB of they being lazy with the dessign, whitout taking into account the role and lore of the unit, while I think that they fit well in their sectorial. Just picking another unit and copying it to other sectorials is not so good... look grenzers 2.0 in corregidor, that was really lazy and non original... I wouldn't like to happen again... and as I sayd, I think that those girls in BJC would end in the RG before than observancy... going nun? nah...going punk!! (or maybe going punk before nun!, I think I will put that slogan in my RG)
Punk nuns! We need that! Or it could be some orphans that church takes care of (and they also disposable).
Admittedly it fits a very similar place: just Mimmetism and ARM instead of CC + Mobility skills, to keep it on theme.
it wouldn't take that much to make it Ok - - Kusanagi counts as Moira - Kusanagi lt level 2 - Rev healer costs less than Avicenna somehow, don't care how (does she really need to be kinda but not really good at both shooting and CC as well as a doctor? I don't want my 1w doctor expensive and in fights, because then if i lose the fight I lose the way to heal at once). - Maybe some other (either good or not expensive) thing(s) that can sub into the link (Stempler? Sineater? New Cheerkiller like unit? whatever) Even maybe Sin eater can only join the Haris if it's the one. Just something to make them a bit compelling in some way.
