Alright let's handle this one thing at a time. Firstly, the list is intended to pair with something more standard. We're still figuring out what that is, of course, but for me so far it's been a lot of all these pieces but also a Shakush and Fiday. Those pieces in concert - expected as reserve deployment elements - helps set an expected tempo for my opponent's deployment that I can trade on by reserving an Asawira duo instead. Secondly, your comments above suggest you use daylami differently to me. I coordinate them rarely and only against an ideal target (I'd consider giving it a shot vs e.g. a linked grenzer or bolt sniper; less so vs a kamau). Their role is to ablate enemy orders for the first two turns, and they're excellent at it. Properly positioned, four daylami should take about eight orders to kill even under ideal circumstances for your opponent, which can effectively sap an entire turn worth of attack and set up a counterpunch. In my game yesterday I threw command tokens into getting in with one and making a shotgun attack (a pseudo-libertos run) and it still took my opponent most of the game with their core linked high-WIP HI to clear through the rest. In short, if you're not able to sap much of a first turn from any traditional attack run with daylami, you're probably playing them wrong. In terms of weapon ranges, like I said, this should pair with a list with HMG + impersonation presence. But I'm reasonably confident the high-quality spitfire and marksman rifle attacks should suffice for a lot of games, trading on a combination of strategic deployment if I think I need it and the fact that an asawira duo is highly mobile upfield, with 6" cautious moves and 4" dodges. If your tables are highly porous or just generally open, or if your meta makes 'valley' tables a lot (tables where the highest ground is in the deployment zones and the lowest ground is in the table center, typically a design that precludes people from leaving their DZs without fighting enemy snipers on bad terms) then you'll want to use something different to this. To tackle a few of the other specifics you've mentioned: Achilles + Andromeda + Counterintelligence: Andromeda scares me the most here, because for Achilles I can tarpit him with daylami and I have a hacker he can't stealth against (although my repeater coverage will be slight until I've had a turn to drop pitchers). Andromeda's ability to engage with CC attacks against models trying to shotgun ARO her, though, is pretty scary and likely to do damage I can't triage. If I suspect he of pushing for an infiltration roll, I need to make sure daylami are positioned to demand being dealt with, since she doesn't have a marker state and doesn't want to take a panzerfaust shot in ARO if she can avoid it. You can't ever truly prevent a list like this from doing damage on the first turn, but I can afford to take a fair few hits without compromising by ability to counterattack. On that note, I'm not terribly afraid to take some damage with this list. It has four regenerating heavy infantry including two Doctor (+3s), and you can easily fit a third doctor in if you want to tinker with some pieces. Its swimming in robust pieces that heal themselves and each other. In games I've had already with more standard hassassin lists I've taken hits that I've nearly totally recovered from by the end of my opponent's first turn. Margo + Duroc: in general I expect these to be relatively telegraphed and mostly the issue will be ablating Duroc's attack. Fortunately, the list should be pretty ok at that. It's full of things just as good as he is in CC and which can absorb chain rifle attacks effectively. This pair is very good, but I don't think they present an existential threat unless you either don't figure out they're coming or forget about them mid-game. MSV snipers: I might coordinate a daylami attack against them, but usually wouldn't (especially kamau). Locally we play on tables that don't let a single sniper bracket a player totally inside their deployment zone so I'd expect at least one of my smaller teams to be able to advance into range through sufficient use of cautious/dodge movement. Alternatively there'll often be potential to jump one of the Asawira spitfires into a core with Yara and just deploy 20" from the enemy DZ.
Oh, I never use them that way, tarpit forever - although in N3 spam meta Haqq and Hassassin players around here favored that to get rid of Kamau (it was yet another coinflip on top of old Daylami deployment imo but some people are into high stakes plays). It was more of a comment on a list in question going whole hog on mass asawiras with no 32" range guns. Yeah thats also my take - brute force of Asawira or smoke trick shooting of Yara should be paired with Fiday or Ragik (though Ragik turn 1 is less than favorable) as another vector of attack if it is an outranged situation. Having all your threats going from deployment zone or +4" FD is too predictable. Tables matter a lot and fortunately like 80% we dont get open tables at my favored LGS but when we get back to large tournaments next year (hopefully) lots of things can happen. Should also be considered that new high ground cover rules open a lot of Fort Asshole sniper positions.
I'am totally agree with this, "new roof cover" is amazing and allow to place ARO pieces were nobody would had made in old N3. :D About lists with so many "Asawiras" and not too many long range options, or deep deployment, which I use too a lot) like the list of @RobertShepherd, I can assure you most of the times can work even in some not extremely wide open tables. Of course, if you go into a Tournament in a place which you don't know nothing you have some options: take your habitual list, do one for close tables another for open ones... etc. But it is not the point here discuss about "tournament" options, I think. Don't forget that now in N4, active dodge allow us to move our troups in Active turn too, this is something really strong when dealing agaisnt some "long ARO pieces", before it was madness declare "move+dodge" now it could be some strategic movement. With a successful dodge Asawiras can move 25 cm, if this isn't enought to take the IP into spitfire range, well, you have serious problems and the table is really really "cover free". Of course I can't deny while playing list "stay at Deployment Zone" sometimes you miss that "fiday", but this has nothing to do with the weakness or not of the list. Perhaps is in those new "options" where the true power of this new hassasin laid... You aren't forced anymore to include that fiday. You can or not align him, same for the asawiras. Without HI you can build pretty lists too. This is all the surprise we, hassasin players need. It will be that last miniature a fiday or a second one? Nobodys will know until you finish your deployment... Now even we can have or not a Ragik or a hidden deployment asset. :) :)
This is a draft list to try to get some benefit out of the Ayyar. The goal is to use the Ayyar's presence to disguise the hidden elements (Ragik and Nadhir) for just a little while. Not sure what I'll disguise the Ayyar as. Frankly, at this stage, just thinking three Ghulam hackers. It at least partly disguises the points. gZIQaGFzc2Fzc2luLWJhaHJhbQpBeXlhciBsbWFvgSwCAQgAgUkBBAAAgUkBBQAAgS0BDgAAgVEBAQAAgVEBBAAAgwsBAQAAgUMBBgAAgUMBBgACBwCBOAEDAACBTAECAACBMwEEAACGCQECAACBPgEBAACBQwEGAACBQwEGAA==
Disguising Ayyar as hacker should be the best, even just 1 and foregoing projections - makes TAGs and HI avoid his ZoC Ayyar is also one of the best gotchas against Duroc and other dogs due to the viral pistols - in such matchups i'd disguise him as a (seemingly useless against Total Immunity) Warcor
Umm, and why not disguise the ayar as something cheaper and using only "holomask"? I mean, you can hide the presence of a HI while doing your enemy think about what will come from the sky or the hot sand. Back in N3 I use a lot the Ayar as an Barid when I had too a Ragik or a lot of "camos", now with the "hidden deployment" unit is easier than before. Yes, "holoecho" is amazing, but not always the best "disguise option". I think "the barid choice" is the idea @fatherboxx talk about... right?
You need to look like you have a full 15 models or your opponent will suspect something is up. At least if they subscribe to the current forum wisdom that one must always use all 15 slots.
Queensgambit is correct. I'm specifically trying to conceal the presence of both a Nadhir and Ragik. As best I can tell there's nothing I can mimic as more expensive that doesn't telegraph the presence of an Ayyar either directly via presenting an illegal list or indirectly via presenting a stupid list (although frankly I'm trading on my reputation as being willing to play jank by running some sort of hassassin hacking dominance list with the ghulams), and anything cheaper is increasingly likely to fail to conceal the presence of my hidden models. As it happens, I ran the list this evening. The Nadhir and Ragik were reasonably instrumental (the Nadhir more so than the Ragik, which was convenient but not essential). The Ayyar had a nearly ideal game in terms of opportunities to use his kit, which resulted in: - baiting out and wasting about one order on Shinobu on turn one before she hit the defences I had prepared for her after the holoechoes and died; and - killing a single 17pt model Now to be fair that 17pt model was an enemy heavy infantry because I was playing against JSA, but the mediocrity of the kit shone through pretty hard. I'll play him again for meme lists but that's the sum of it.
Did your opponent leave himself open to the Ragik and Nadhir because he thought you had 15 models on the table?
Yes, of course, I keep in mind that, what I tried to say (catastrophically wrong) was that he had too the option to not conceal the presence of both troups but the Ayar itself. We have now a lot of tools to "play dirty" :P
No - the Ragik came on late to make a play for a held supply box. The piece I went after was stretching its LOF awkwardly to try to hold off some of my surviving Daylami, so it was a pretty organic demonstration of how airborne pieces get more powerful as formations disperse over the course of the game. Likewise the Nadhir got a pretty nice shot off, but later in the turn the Ayyar's jig was up. I got the shot because my opponent had cleared daylami on overwatch and had to make a run for the center somehow, and the daylami sapped so many orders that his core linked MSV marksman was out of orders when he went to roll out his haris team. The Ayyar didn't contribute to that particular play at all. The holoecho deception wasn't useless; it was relevant at deployment, and sapped an order or two. But 'not useless' isn't really the bar I want to set for models included in a list especially given the other pieces Hassassins have access to. I really want the Ayyar to be good, because the model concept is sweet. But it was on the low end of the curve in N3 and the water level has only risen around it.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but concealing the presence of an Ayyar doesn't conceal the presence of a particularly powerful or dangerous model. TAGs are common enough now that you might get an edge case play with an EMitter shot your opponent doesn't expect, but you're spending a lot of points to roll that die.
I keep thinking it's all a big mistake and they were still meant to have mandatory over-infiltration or something.
Yeah hush now I’ve not had a chance to play yet, and I missed out on the OP Muttawi’ah play for N3 so I wanna have something cool
I like how it makes him play differently than a normal Fiday. Sure, he is deadly in CC, but he really wants to engage as a shooter permanently killing low armor targets. And there is no reason to use him for trading if you do not want to.
Also Burst 2 "Light Flamethrower" from Marker State is extremely scary to just about everything. Not even HI Links want to risk that kind of pummeling.
