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Your N4 Games

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Space Ranger, Oct 2, 2020.

  1. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    ... but the only forward movement allowed would be equivalent to one Guija base, right? So in fact it is kind the same as Climbing Plus except you lose cover benefits for the whole trajectory (while in C+ you could claim cover to lower Silhoutes from the moment your base is in the horizontal plane).
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand what you mean with no forward movement? Take a reasonably stiff plastic stick or tape measure and bend it into a parabola, there's no prescribed max angle what so ever so you can bend the parabola to have two almost perfect 90º angles. Also, Climbing+ you'll find in reality you tend to almost (but not quite) always be unable to claim cover because the enemy can just shoot you while you're climbing.

    I'm not gonna claim that it's better than Climb+, but it is an asset that can be used to great effect which is more than what I could say for most other abilities in the same price category.
     
  3. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    We are talking about the same thing, I was saying that considering the fat base, a jump needs to be slightly less than 4in up means just "skipping" the base forward (accomodating the base on the new surface). And anything less than 3in tall you can actually vault over...

    Sorry, finer points are difficult to explain in English.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Oh yeah, true. *sigh*

    So doing a bit of math, of the most simple kind, Guijia has a 2.1" base and a 2.6" silhouette. This means there's a window of 2.7" to 3.4" where you can effectively gain height by Super-Jumping as a Short Skill.
    For Ye Mao or most other S2 jumpers, that''s a window of 1.6" to 3". (At least this is useful for getting up one single floor per short skill)
    Deducting any railing or debris near the edge. This is actually a terrible traversal skill. By comparison, a Guijia can "jump" by declaring a regular Climb next to a wall a total effective jump height of 10.2", with the obvious drawback that you need to start in base contact with the wall (which is more common that you are than it might sound like)
    For the Ye Mao this climb is 6". For both the Guijia's climb and the Ya Mao's climb, add rather than subtract the thickness of debris and/or railing on the top.

    Basically, unless you're a 6-X MOV S2 to S6 Trooper, Super-Jump as a mobility skill is just not very good and mostly only useful for occasionally doing a pop-up attack.

    I may have accidentally cheated a bit in my first game this weekend :(
     
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  5. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    My own quick numbers assuming diagonals (which is WRONG) was kinda close. And I agree; Superjump on the Guija seems useful only to do a snap jump attack to deny cover of the enemy, or risk a good jump from behind a wall to allow you a "new" venue of advance.

    A 10in vertical jump is not bad, but will probably expose you to AROs for that order.
     
  6. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    At this point Super Jump is a fairly useless and dead rule that exists to bloat profiles and trick newer players into wasting orders.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully it's on CB's radar to unfuck in a near FAQ @HellLois save super jump plz
     
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  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Need a best rules award. I think given that super jump is effectively useless and it has the major headache of calculating those parabolas, it'd be a shoe in
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Well that was kina awful. I just had a game against RTF. Beware the missile bot! If RTF has it, then you know he has Taureg hackers.

    Mission: Supplies

    White Banner going first. I had two supply boxes undefended by RTF so Guilang went up to get them and then spotlighted by Tuareg hackers. I couldn't retaliate at all. I tried even moving out of his area to reset and just got lighted again. When it came to his turn he of course killed them with missiles. The Tauregs re-camo and got even closer and there wasn't much I could do to stop them. I tried using my TG KHD through are repeater a Guilang put down before he died but he got killed instead. No more hackers. It just got worse and worse. At one point I thought I could get a tie but not to happen. he had killed enough guys that his link team came all across the board to kill my Long ya that had one of the boxes. He didn't grab that one but he brought up his Red Fury FO bot up to grab one of them. My BW got Targeted and then Isolated. Shang Ji got targeted and took a wound. In my first turn both my Guilang, shaolin were targeted and later easily killed and there's almost nothing you can do about it.

    Edit: actually I did have some luck. The first time he used the bot on my minelayer Guilang, I actually made my armor saves. The next shot he went kablooy.

    upload_2020-11-2_19-36-25.png
     
    #69 Space Ranger, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
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  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Having had some further time exploring infowar in games

    • Ninja HD profile is decent. I'd rather have a third Guilang but the Ninja HD is serviceable enough and the surprise factor of suddenly fighting multiple hackers makes it less attractive to push into repeater networks. Good enough to mix in and out for unpredictability and shell games
    • Son-Bae is auto include in any info war list. The raw threat of the missiles even if they never fire is a big deal.
    • The Daoying hacker is very hit and miss, and can be a struggle to get consistent work done during the turn. Feels alot safer to play and get value out of in N4 if the NCO is present. I think there is a solid argument for FD Minelayer Krit to find his way into these lists.
    • Ninja KHD continues to be unreliable an unreliable low reward high risk choice with a very limited scope. Do not recommend it ever, consistently find myself even with the KHD present I need units to attack repeaters not entrenched hackers.
    • The Guilang HD profile is a fucking monster. I think this is the one profile that could honestly keep White Banner at least interesting it's so damn strong.
     
    #70 Triumph, Nov 3, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2020
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I tried taking Guilang HD but because I wanted to take the BW, it made sacrifices eleswhere. As it was I took the SJ HRL instead of the HMG.

    So far in 4 games i've taken the Hundun, He's been easily killed. Not sure if i'll keep taking it. But only one of those he had Hidden Deployment. It didn't help me much. He was targeted eventually by a Taureg HD and then killed along with a Chaiyi.

    The Tian Gou KHD doesn't actually seem worth the price over a Zhanshi HD. I may try a Jammer but so far I haven't had much that comes close enough or is in camo with stealth.
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I would recommend them, they're actually disgusting how good they are.


    Hundun is an upgraded TR bot. Don't expect more from it. You pay for them because it scares the ever loving fuck out of link teams and makes people think twice about what they do with AD troops and moving links. Making your opponent fuck about fishing to get them to pop out of HD is the value in wasted and inefficient orders.

    Also why would you not have hidden deployment?
     
  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    This was the first N4 game I played that he had it as a rule.

    I'll keep trying him out. Some of it has been my bad placement. In this case the Taureg just got to close after I had revealed.
     
  14. JudgeDee7

    JudgeDee7 Member

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    What do you guys think of taking Major Lunah instead of the Hundun? She's a similar price but gets the MSV and Viral Sniper.
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    Some of that might come down to choice of time to reveal; a Chaiyi is an almost negligible threat to most players unless they're on a big rambo run, and Tuaregs are hard to hit on low burst, so that situation favours him unless the Tuareg is at a horrible range. Your best bets for a surprise double ARO are linked SWC weapons, TR bots and quality Suppressive Fire units, especially with MSV.
     
  16. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    It depends what you're after. I think Lunah is more of an active turn piece, and a relatively niche one (although quite good). She can ARO in a pinch but you shouldn't be relying on it at all.

    I think Hundun's are to provide the threat of a devastating ARO rather than actually devastate anyone. It requires a bit of tact to get decent use of it, which means some games you won't get much out of it at all. But its definitely more of a piece you can use for effective delaying AROs than lunah just from the hidden deployment.

    Basically, even if a hundun can just catch a model in a risky spot (in the open at bad ranges for example). Hopefully you deployed it as such that your opponent is at least forced to spend a few more orders resolving that issue, which will be somewhat unexpected and throw their plans out a bit. That will be a win for the model.
    Lunah won't generally do anything unexpected to your opponent.

    How are you using Guilang hackers? In most of my reckons, its better to have hackers deployed back and use repeaters where possible then risk forward hackers getting ganged on.
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    The Guilang is a little bit different because of his wide scope in kit. The fact that he carries mines and MSV1 plus the hacking device gives him a very unique ability to abuse the fuck out of the game mechanics and force your opponent into undertaking the kobayashi maru.

    You toss smoke in front of the link or troopers you need to bully.

    You then move the Guilang into the smoke and place a mine in front of them, this is to shed the camo state so your opponent can't delay AROs against the Guilang.

    You then activate the Guilang again and move, indicate that you're not using Stealth (if the opponent lacks sixth sense, if they're a core link you don't need to do this they ignore it anyway), which now forces the ARO to be declared:

    • Does he declare dodge? He rolls against the mine, while you declare a hacking attack which may be spotlight for your Son-Bae, Oblivion or whatever. This is a normal roll thanks to the ARO being dodge.
    • Does he declare reset to avoid the hacking attack? Fine, you can see him with the MSV1. Shoot him on uncontested normal rolls, plus the mine also auto hits.
    No matter what your opponent declares because the Guilang has so many options you're going to get a relatively favourable chance to afflict him with something. This is basically the next level up from the Uxia/Ko Dali smoke shenanigans.

    Ye Mao can actually achieve a similar thing. They don't get the mines so they don't have quite the same effect but linking with a Multirifle and BS12 gives them a greater shooting threat against harder targets, and they'd have the option for the burst 2 chain colt which is actually reasonably dangerous.

    She's a better shot, but not as good in terms of a hidden threat making your opponent really question what they're doing and playing defensively. I prefer the Hundun, but she's probably a viable alternative.
     
    #77 Triumph, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
  18. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    She's not an alternative if playing White Banner like I was. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Unfortunately, the Taureg was right below him in a building. My BW went in to get rid of it but made it's save against my HFT. And got itself oblivioned.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The choice between Lunah and Hundun Sniper is a no brainer, IMO. Lunah. Every time. You'll probably not use either too much actively and recamoing isn't all that great (which is the primary thing that makes the points difference in favour of Lunah); playing vanilla you'll have access to plenty of mines so Lunah can effectively get shell game'd. She is also a primary means of dealing with stuff like McMurrough and other dogs.

    If you're thinking about Lunah vs Hundun HRL then it's a bit harder. That Hundun devastates Fireteams while Lunah deals better with single target threats. Not that either will handle an Avatar (except for in active turn and while in smoke), but Lunah is much better at messing a Mowang or similar up.
     
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  20. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I'm unfortunately foreseeing that the missile bot and hackers are going to be a thing for a while. My friend was telling me that he could have done all that he did a lot easier with Hassasin and with pitchers. I'm not so sure because HB doesn't have the forward deployed hackers. Especially ones that can ARO with Spotlight. It would need to be a very active use of Pitchers. True with Barid in a link and bonus, but it's still spending orders to put the pitcher out. But in our game he start his turn with 3 figures already targeted state. Just the threat of missiles raining down on a troop, especially a good one, can make you spend your orders trying to reset/engineer it away. He started his turn using orders to bring missiles down and killed both of my Guilang. The Shaolin was also targeted but it was killed later in his active turn by a Red Fury Rafik. But then he had +3 to him and no cover.

    For forward deployed of some kind in YJ, we have Guilang, Zhencha, Ninja, Kanren, Daofei, Krit minelayer deploy.

    Also, from my looking at Druze, White Company, Forco, and PanO in general. Watch out for the Peacemaker REM. If they take the 20pt HSG, it's a good cheap repeater already +8" up the board. I would deploy it in a building, on a roof and prone, or anywhere hard to get to and rarely move it! It's got the Auxbot and it's HSG for physical defense too. The only bad thing with it is that it's hackable itself, but when you have an enemy hacker going ARO's through it as well, it could be costly to get rid of it. It's going to need something unhackable that can take it out up close or something from a distance.

    For Nomads, I see a lot more use of the Meteor Zond and Hellcat/Tomcat Deployable Repeaters. Of course Moran but they were already good and taken most of the time by Corregidor and Vanilla.

    Even if the the ML REM is destroyed or they never even had one, fighting that much hacking is going to be a pain.
     
    #80 Space Ranger, Nov 4, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2020
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