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TAGs and SWF

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Jotunn, Oct 19, 2020.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    I'm going to simplify this a bit by making a few claims - Wildcard is easy Burst Bonus and should make up for +1DAM on BS Attacks for the MK12 easy enough.
    +2 Dodge (+1") is not enough compensation for potential Sixth Sense in a Core Link negating -3s from various sources, 6-2 Mov, Stealth, BTS9, PH14 as "defensive stat" for Medkits and IMM-A, as well as very useable CC.
    They're otherwise identical down to the Heavy Pistol aside from Religious vs nothing having upsides/downsides that should cancel out.

    It feels like the Boyg was meant to be a solo piece being able to aggressively use a ML, then got nerfed in playtesting and somehow ended up being way too similar to the KOJ.
    I could understand if he had Total Reaction on that ML to bolster Sval's defenses or BS Attack (+3) or (-3) (which is possible with the unnested N4 rules). Heck a Firewall Tinbot and a DTW/LSG would at least be something.
     
    #21 Teslarod, Oct 22, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    What if Boyg had Sapper ?
     
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  3. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    The notorious BU(y)G...
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Was about to say it's not great since he'd need Courage and Mimetism, but it seems Foxhole wasn't unnested and still grants both.
    I like it, but kind of would warrant Neurokinetics or Total Reaction.

    Now that would be an interesting troop.
     
    #24 Teslarod, Oct 22, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
  5. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    @Teslarod , your arguments are convincing. There's surely an opportunity cost vs. the KoJ.

    My point is that the Boyg is still good, although I see he's just not -as- good as the KoJ. That of course does not make him "suck" as someone else said upthread, which is why I jumped in. He's still useful for the right playstyle, particularly one that uses distraction carnifexes/roadblocks well, while leaving the links free to go do stuff. That's what I faced, and it was well-used.

    I'm pretty tired of spoiled newbs whining that something "sucks" because it isn't either extremely optimized or extremely differentiated vs. all other units in the same broad faction, or even cross-faction. The YJ players whining about the Guijia in N3, for example. Not only is it inaccurate, it poisons the tone of the forums and the game in general.

    The discussion we're having (where Teslarod just did a good job of pointing out that I was wrong about the relative value of the unit) is an example of actual analysis and helpful, positive dialog. "The Boyg sucks (because I can't use it well)" is sadly common recently, and I am happy to help shoot that shiz down.
     
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  6. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    The MK12 with a heavy shotgun sidearm would be pretty sleek. Maybe courage so he doesn't duck so much with wip12. Or throw TR on him. PanO built a massive expensive suit to do what the new doggy mcdogman does better and its not even the best part of him. Its an embarrassing game design choice born from overly cautious design, which is bizarre given the karhu wildcard.
     
  7. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    Wow thanks for the insults. And if you had bothered reading the stuff I wrote. You would have noticed the reasons I think the Bøyg isn't very good. At least in SWF, which was the context I was talking about.
     
    #27 Jotunn, Oct 22, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
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  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    @Savnock I can get behind something having a niche, even a small one, to exploit or inhabit.
    The one thing a Boyg has is a DAM15 Spitfire for 0 SWC. Which is entirely unneccessary in N4, after a bunch of stuff got 0.5 SWC cheaper. And where to invest your SWC if not in your ARM5 HI to begin with?

    So I fail to see that niche for the Boyg, plain and simple and believe me I tried. In N3 that was fine, he would surely get a new awesome Skill or piece of N4 equipment or a cool Link.
    But somehow that never happened and I had to stop telling people "it will all be fine in N4". And join the "Boyg is useless camp" because he is, without any hyperbole intended, useless right next to some of the best Links in the game.

    The one place where he doesn't have to compete with Links is Vanilla. What he has to compete with here is any centerpiece including every TAG on top of Aquila and Swiss of which all are more expensive, but all worth the upgrade. Swiss ML eats him for breakfast in Active and Reactive, Aquila isn't that far away from the MK12 yet significantly deadlier in a FTF.
    Not to mention the Tik who for unknown reasons still is a TAG dodging on 15s (starting to wonder if that's really a bug or intentional).
    To compare that - wouldn't even think about a solo KOJ in Vanilla next to Joan V2 and De Feresen.

    On the fluff side of things he is an affront to PanO design philosophy, having no reason to even be S5 for that Profile. It really didn't take much to make him work. As little as AP on the MK12 or how about MK12 AND ML on the same Profile? Carring a high caliber or multiple main armaments would be a good reason to make him S5.
    The first hightech unhackable HI would have been interesting too, however that would work with Vodootech when even CA can't do it. They had every opportunit but CB dropped the ball on him, sad story, but end of story (for now).

    I'm sure we'll see a revision at some point, after all we're looking at the 3rd large update for MO in recent history. Until then there's a lot other stuff to be content and happy about.
     
    #28 Teslarod, Oct 22, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2020
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  9. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Ok, what if Boyg had Total Immunity ?

    Lets say this SWF unit wears a doggo belt+cape ?
     
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  10. Jotunn

    Jotunn Well-Known Member

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    Total immunity would make the Bøyg very tough and differentiate him from the KoJ in a meaningfull way. It would also make the ML marginally better, as he would be able to chance shots from TAGs to take them down.
     
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