Having a difficult time navigating a rules kerfuffle and I think this is something that is going to need clarification for anyone whose played N3 to any extent. Can't really repost the conversation due to Swedish being one of the smaller EU languages. When do I specify at what point my trooper shoots at a target? Is it at declaration or wherever is best for my trooper? @ijw or @HellLois Example: A clever Alguacil declared BS Attack on Angus the Eternal Victim. Angus declares a BS Attack in response. Alguacile Moves out of cover and rushes to a better position. Pan-O player: Alguacile does not get cover because of All At Once the movement and BS Attack order doesn't matter an I can target the Alguacile when they are out of cover. Nomad player: my friend, you have to declare all details when you declare the attack and my Alguacile was in cover at that time! It says so on page 21. Pan-O player: it only says you need to specify the point from which you attack, it says nothing about the point you attack to. Nomad player: It says "etc", that's not an exhaustive list and how is the exact spot you shoot not a detail of a BS Attack (And that's basically where the muuuuch longer thread got stuck, so I'm asking for an argument from authority)
This thread should include a notice whether you're deliberately trying to ignore how the game treated the same phrasing in N3, compared to N4. One edition: IMPORTANT! All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, or Entire Order Skill must be specified when it is declared. For instance, if you declare a movement, specify the entire route; if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, how the Burst is divided, etc. The other edition: IMPORTANT All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared. For instance, if you declare a movement, specify the entire route; if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, where the Trooper shoots from, how the Burst is divided, etc. Guess which edition is which.
I also remember similar discussions coming up in early N3, due to changes in how template weapons work. If you are shooting a template at Angus, your target point is locked in, since the template must be placed immediately. If non-template weapons are also locked, that actually makes the game more consistent in one way. However, it does violate the all at once rule, which breaks a different kind of consistency. (In N2, templates were not placed until after you passed the hit roll; the N3/N4 template rules are a significant improvement to overall playability)
Kindly, Solkan, lately you've been very belligerent and also seem to be assuming I'm posting in bad faith quite often. If it at all helps you read the thread; neither of these imaginary players nor the TO in question is me, but it is a real issue that has come up and it would massively help the TO out if there was an official clarification on the topic.
Page 21 is your friend As for the BS Attack + Move, my reading is from the Important box on the bottom right of page 21 “ if you declare a BS Attack, specify which Weapon will be used, who the targets are, where the Trooper shoots from, how the Burst is divided, etc. So in your example the Alguacil shoots from cover as he has declared BS Attack as first skill and Move as his second skill. The good news for the Alguacil is that assuming Angus gets an ARO from the first skill then he will shoot back at the Alguacil while it is in cover as at the time of declaration the Alguacil is in cover and you don’t know where it may move to, so you couldn’t specify all the details necessary to declare BS Attack. Of course if Angus only gets an ARO during the Alguacils move then he may be able to shoot him while he’s out of cover
The point of contention is precisely that there is a claim that page 21 does not require Angus to specify which position he is shooting at. It is this specific thing that I am requesting clarification on; whether you need to specify what position you are shooting at is a detail you need to specify. Basically, this only matters if the active player is trying to be clever and declaring BS Attack and then Move in order to maximise their odds (which also takes some risks with Hidden Deployment, mind you...)
I can neither confirm nor deny it, but I think I remember that many years ago «Interruptor» himself clarified that the shot could be fired against any point of the movement, even if the movement had been declared in the second part of the Order (and therefore after to declare the ARO). But as I said it is something that I remember but I can not confirm it.
The other point to note is that N4 adds the requirement to declare where you fire from: this was not a requirement in N3. So until and unless there's an Errata making it clear that you can choose target location at Resolution then *for the purposes to LOF attacks that require a target position* I'm playing it that in N4 you need to declare target location when you declare an Attack using LOF. However, since we have @ijw's statements on how Step 5 is intended to work for ZOC interactions (and requiring a target location would break that) I won't be playing that you need to declare [the target location] of an attack using ZOC. Edited: added missing text required for meaning.
Page 20 has a "wasted" pink text: it explains Move plus BS Attack (compare with p21, non wasted text about camo & discover), it would more useful for BS Attack plus Move (and linking with "vice versa" just above the line). I.E., can you force shots to happen at the start, from the initial positions of active troop and AROers? Because if everything has to be declared sequentially* and complete, yes, positions can be forced. As in BS Attack from cover, whatever AROs but probably BS Attack (with the cover penalty), then second part that can be... anything that is allowed, including not moving, or walking to another cover position (which may generate a second batch of AROs, from enemies without LoF to start position, and obviously this time means easy mode BS Attacks as ARO, because they can select out of cover points and are not getting shot back). Otherwise the AROer can bet the active will move, and declare the first round of AROs with that assumption ("I will shot you here")... and become Idles because the active never moves over that point (or at all). *: All at once is more about resolution and effects, so firing from one point and getting shot from another is "cosmetic", the thing is solved by FtF roll, not two unopposed. And declarations are not all at once, but follow "order expenditure sequence".
Just based on my reading of the N4 rulebook (with no N3 experience) I never would've assumed that AROs could be forced (depending on the order of declarations) to happen whilst in cover if the figure then moved out into the open after the ARO is declared. The book repeatedly says that things happen simultaneously and does mention (and I know this is referring to an active turn player and not specifically the ARO-er) p)45 MOVE + BS ATTACK (OR VICE VERSA) Since the Skills used in an Order are simultaneous, a BS Attack can be declared at any point during the route followed by the Move Skill. If the Burst is divided among several targets, all shots must be made from a single point. Usually, the attack is made from the position that offers the biggest advantage: a clear LoF, targets out of Cover, optimal range, etc. p)8 IMPORTANT Even though they are declared one after the other, both Skills in a single Order are performed simultaneously. For example, if you declare Move plus BS Attack, you can make the BS Attack at any point during the declared movement route, and not necessarily at the end of that route. So let's say the situation was reversed and the attacker declares a BS attack, the defender, who is behind partial cover, makes their ARO declaration, and then the attacker moves to get a better line of sight that avoids the partial cover. Even though the defender had partial cover when the attack was declared, I don't think the attacker is forced to use the partial cover - I doubt the defender would be forced by this either.
Perhaps this will help https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...-are-line-of-fire-requirements-checked.38309/
Thank you, this is a declaration issue, however. Neither the TO nor the player disputes that LOF needs to be checked on declaration, but rather if the LOF need to be declared. @inane.imp did post the relevant question in that thread so hopefully that one will be answered there even so.
You can't really check LOF if you don't know the position of the Attacker and the Target though... Or at least that's how I see it. ;) But yeah, a specific answer would be cool.
