So I've been lurking for the last month as N4 was rolled out and am trying to get into Infinity, but I'm sort of lost as to how to build a functional list now that a lot of the well-documented advice from N3 is obsolete. I initially got into PanO because I really liked the limited edition Joan of Arc figure and the Cutter, I currently own the former as well as the Ice Storm PanO starter figures. Can someone give me an idea of what must-have pieces go into a vanilla PanO Joan list in N4? Or if it's possible to make a functioning Joan/Cutter list? I was originally looking at Varuna but I'm sorta iffy on them now since their reactive playstyle seems to have been heavily nerfed.
Hi, welcome to the Hyperpower ;) Old advice which focused on specific units might be somewhat outdated, but the one focusing on general rules for list creation should still be viable. First of all, start small. Fielding a full 300 pts list, not to mention TAGs, from the get go might end badly and dishearten you from the game. Make some basic 100-150 pts lists, play a few games with them, make some more for 200 pts, repeat the process until you'll get to 300 pts. Consider this a training wheels mode, it really allows to learn the basics and get to know your units at a manageable pace. There are three basic rules for creating a viable list: Orders. Those are the energy upon which your list runs. You should have at least 8 Regular orders in your main combat group (except at 100-150 pts level, where 6-7 might do). If you're creating a list with two combat groups, both need enough orders to achieve the tasks you've set for them. Remember, your list must be able to function even after taking some casualties. You'll get a feel for it after some games. Firepower. Main PanO strength. You want to have heavy weapons for both Active turn (usually assault weapons of some kind - HMGs, Spitfires, Red Furies, etc; in general, weapons with effective range of at least 24" and Burst 3+), and Reactive turn (usually low burst - high damage ones, like Multi Sniper Rifles and Missile Launchers). This distinction isn't set in stone; good sniper - or Missile Laucher in a full fireteam, like Knight of Justice in MO) can be devastating in active turn, given good range. Good starting point is to have 1 HMG, 1-2 Spitfires or equivalents, 1 ML or MSR, plus any assortment of Marksman Rifles, SMGs, shotguns and direct template weapons you might feel comfortable with. The idea is to have enough flexibility and range coverage to be able to always engage enemy in your best range, while stopping him from doing the same. Another thing is to look at ammo - in N4 we can't rely on simple weight of fire and critical hits to deal with heavy units, AP ammo is valuable, as well as Shock, DA, EXP, E/M - again, this is something you'll get a feel for. Specialists. After a few simple kill'em all games you'll probably start playing missions, and you'll want units that can interact with objectives - Hackers, Doctors, Engineers, Paramedics, Forward Observers, etc. You want to have 4-6 different ones in your list, to be able to deal with objectives even after suffering some casualties. Also, each of them has their own uses aside from being a specialist - look what you want to achieve, what's your battle plan, what units you need to field to achieve it. Important thing is that lists in Infinity are tailored to the missions you'll be playing, and to your opponent, if you'll know his army and playstyle beforehand. There's no netlists, and don't expect a single list to be able to take on every mission and every army equally well. Sometimes you'll want to field units with a lot of staying power. Sometimes you'll want to rely on flanking, or strong midfield deployment, or use TAGs. Think of your army as a toolbox, and the mission at hand as a problem to solve - and choose the best tools for the job. There's an old Infinity motto, "It's not your list, it's you" - meaning that the list composition is not as important as the skill of the player. You should take care with your list building, but even more care with their handling. In regards to TAG lists - TAGs are our specialty, so ours tend to be more efficient and better optimized than those of other factions. In N4 they're also cheaper, more durable, easier to field and support. The important thing is that TAG will almost always be a centerpiece; including one changes your list from an infantry platoon to mechanized/combined arms force, and the rest of your list should reflect it, providing proper support for your machine. You don't fight with tanks in urban enviroment without proper support. This means a) Engineer with Palbots to keep your TAG in battle condition efficiently; killer hackers to deal with opposing ones, possibly EVO hacker to keep Fairy Dust Supportware up, to keep it harder to hack; midfield camo units to support the TAG and provide a screen you can retreat in preparation for your Reactive turn; secondary attack pieces, to provide distraction, exploit openings created by the TAG, and act as a backup in case the TAG goes down. Every unit in Infinity can be killed, nothing is invincible, and often opponent will have tools of his own to deal with yours. Be prepared. There's an excellent guide to TAG play written by daboarder, look it up. If you plan to create a Joan list you might want some cheap, Irregular units that Joan's Inspiring Leadership will turn Regular - Warcor, Tech Bee, Helot, etc. Next, a unit with Chain of Command. Joan is an obvious Lieutenant, and your opponent might go for a decapitation strategy, if he'll have tools for it. I'd also take some hacking defence, in general units to defend your centerpieces after their attack runs. Support Pack and basic Dronbot box are good starting purchases, you'll be using them often. Regarding Varuna - while it does have access to one of the best defensive pieces in the game, it's not exclusively a defensive army. Varuna's thing was always flexibility; it has a wide range of units, some of which were the most unique and interesting PanO troops at the time of their introduction. They're just as strong now, even if some of the tools, like Jammer, got more restricted (which was good for the game, actually). In general I advise new players to start with sectorial, it's easier to focus on purchases and tactics, vanilla's wide choice can be overwhelming - especially in a faction with five sectorials. Anyway - good luck, happy hunting ;)
welcome! here is a general list of units I would consider running vanilla for - some of their "stars" so-to-speak. in addition to these i would also consider making a list around each of our TAGs and would also consider our Remotes as "must-owns". anyway - Joan+cutter is alot of points jammed into one list - probably wont reach more than 10 orders with such expensive pieces combined in one list. I would suggest for your first couple games lean into taking more orders and cheaper troopers. So let's focus on a joan list. This is an example of something I would bring: for what its worth i threw this together quickly - you can probably find one more point and put in a warcor. anyway - Here we have a strong LT in group one that can play really aggressively thanks to the Bolt CoC. outside of Joan, there's also some support pieces like the midfielder Nokken laying mines and taking out ARO pieces like TR bots or anything else susceptible to negative mods. The nisse offers capabilities as a really tough back-up fighter who can kill enemy camo/mimetism troops at long range. similarly the Bulleteers can act as active turn killers or tough road blocks with suppressive fire/marksmanship/enhanced reaction. they're very flexible and very useful. Krakots offer good deployment zone defence and can also make a break for it and attack enemy camo or anything left in the mid field. The second group plays a pure support role. they offer security and buffs for your group one troopers and can also break out and score objectives during the later parts of the game when it's safe.
@MikeTheScrivener for that second list I'd probably move one of the Bulleteers into the second group, maybe switched it with Bolt. It's good to have a secondary attack unit in the smaller group too, to use its orders when otherwise there's nothing for the support to do.
either that or the krakots. often times I find it useful to just reposition palbots/specialists for the coming turns as well.
That's a lot of great information, and a lot to digest! I think I have a better sense for building around Joan and it looks like a lot of the auto-includes are largely similar to what were used in N3 vanilla joan lists, focusing on the best stuff vanilla can bring out plus irregular units that get massively buffed by her. So setting aside the cutter and joan for the moment, since those lists seem a bit more difficult to use effectively, what's a good core of units for getting into Varuna in N4? I like ORC troops and it sounds like they went from being pretty mediocre to maybe being one of the big winners in the edition. You hear a lot about the Kamau sniper but I have no idea how the edition change will alter its utility. I'm playing 150 point learning games with my friends, got some suggestions for a Varuna list?
For a friendly game I'd leave the Kamau sniper home, it's still one of the best ARO pieces around (though it'll possibly get surpassed by the Bolt sniper once Neoterra arives), and at 150 pts people might struggle to fight around it. ORCs were pretty decent for a time now, got even better after N4 price drop, Boarding Shotguns gives them native access to a template weapon, better Paramedics means healing Heavy Infantry got easier, too. I'd probably start with a mixed ORC/Fusilier Core, and then add support, flankers, some surprises to taste: You'll hear a lot of people saying that only units with extremely high burst and Mimetism can be good as attack pieces, but that's only partially true; high BS, resilience, and fireteam bonuses go a long way towards leveling the field, and ORC/Fusiliers team can be pretty good in both Active and Reactive turn. Echo-Bravo and Zulu-Cobra are signature Varuna units, and quite efficient at what they do, too. Helot RF is most likely overkill - usually you'll want your SWC weapon on something that can be used in active turn, like Echo-Bravo - but at 150 pts it should be a decent guardian.
@NauticalSoup I don't know if you're a podcast listener, but if you have the time, this White Noise episode is an early assessment of N4 PanO from a competitive perspective. https://benandmarty.libsyn.com/155-blue-bloods-part-1
Thanks for the recommendations, will try running that next game! @barakiel Great recommendation. Gavin (I think?) even lists off a work-in-progress Cutter/Joan vanilla list at around 50 minutes.
@NauticalSoup Gavin builds great lists. I think we tried to focus on strengths as best we could with Vanilla, but the fact remains that some of Vanilla's best staples simply aren't available in the game at present (their best utility/defensive cheerleaders, Acon Regular Minelayers and Auxilia) and that PanO's Vanilla offerings have always been strange compared to other armies. Vanilla's long been referred to as the Joan of Arc Sectorial, and rightly so, because she's the primary incentive for taking Vanilla over a Sectorial.
@barakiel Yeah that's the impression I got. Surprisingly, the WinterForce stuff sounded neat. Despite the weight of redundant units, the stuff that works sounds very nice indeed - very 'brick-to-face' lol Might try them out next.
I have a question: WinterForce and Varuna seem to have the option to take special forces ORCs from each other - is that a normal/forever thing? Those units aren't sectorial unique?
We got confirmation that some of the options are shared between sectorials. I assume that when Neoterra and Acontecimento will be released they'll have their own options as well, and who knows what their availability will be.
It's definitely strange, and I have mixed feelings about it. It detracts from some of the unique flavor of each sectorial, but it also provides a bigger selection of tools and helpful profiles. Since it's in Army, go for it, and we'll have to see where things stabilize in the weeks/months to come.
I mean if it's allowed might as well take advantage of it, as weird as it is to have jungle/aquatic specialists in a winter war formation.
Wait Varuna gets to keep the C+ & Tinbot Orcs? Not complaining about it because Varuna can definitely use some C+ but who thought that was a good idea?
The actual list of Sval profiles available in VIRD is kind of restricted. Feels way more like a bug than an actual faction design choice. What are your thoughts? From a linkability standpoint, looks like they couldn't join a Core (Army specifies only VIRD ORCs can join Fusiliers) but obviously that isn't too bad, since they could still form up as a Haris with Patsy, Kamau, etc.
Well I've had access to Dart in 3 Sectorials (Vanilla Aleph, OSS, SAA) and those make up 75% of my games for the last years. Since Dart released I learned to get very comfortable with what multiwound C+ does for the versatility of a list. Add in 6-2, Firewall and the choice of Multirifle/BSG and I love the C+ Orc in a Haris. HMG, Patsy, C+ Orc has everything you could possibly want from a Haris (although I'd prefer Karhu Paramedic/Engineer, KoJ Spitfire C+ Orc Haris in a vacuum). Atm I'd ditch Varuna for Sval based on Sval having excellent C+ access, the C+ Orc intentionally being available for Varuna singlehandedly changes that for me. What the Karhu doesn't do as well as the Kamau is ARO, the Feuerbach is significantly more deadly for active. Sniper Rangebands and ignoring ODDs/Smoke completely combined with Shock immunity makes the Kamau the better defender. Add in HD Crocs, Zulus and Echo Bravos and you get a less amazing but still excellent Link with forward options instead of the more DZ based straight up aggression Sval brings.