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Invincible Army Tactica N4 (WIP)

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Greysturm, Oct 7, 2020.

  1. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    I havent really measured ARO profoundly for N4 yet but my go to has been pretty much what you bring except that i decided to change the hai dao sniper for an engineer. For some reason the sniper wasnt really working but the son bae did and repairing it was key for trying the new guided rules.
     
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  2. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    All this talk of
    You are playing a sledge hammer as a rubber mallet in my opinion.
    I wouldn’t say IA aren’t an AROcentric force, sure we have them..but we excel in the active turn with the armour to survive reactive. Use a badass HI link covered by a TR bot and a zencha on a roof, pretty risky for anything to push on the link then.
     
  3. Khalipo

    Khalipo Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, with the lack of mid-table units like libertos, long Ya etc, we risk being rushed. It happened to me before, not having the minis to delay the enemy's advance.

    And arm3 is not reliable nor lasting for me to just say 'tank it'
     
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  4. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    psychoticstorm
     
  5. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    I agree that it’s stupid to ‘tank it’, but making it has hard as you can for them to rush your link and using a well positioned link to react to the push can really hamper it, if not halt it altogether.
    I always run a hefty zuyong link (now with added demon shang ji), and they are usually the thing that gets stuff done. Everything else is just support for them to get the mission done, well 80% of the time they do. If the enemy sends everything after them they have a fight on their hands and my Zencha/Hulang/Krit FD/Liu Xing is much clearer to push buttons etc.
    I’ve found most every opponent I’ve played that runs too many cheerleaders loses there attack/specialist pieces to my overwhelming fire power and has a pile of crap left to score with, which usually means they can’t or at least its very difficult for them to.
    I think you have to really carefully select your targets the first turn (or two if they are good), go after the biggest threat first, cover your angles for reactive and play smart. The Haidao zanshi sniper link is effective but thats you core taken up with models that generally sit at the back, what happens when the other guys start to drop? Thats a long walk to go help out.

    but at the end of the day there is more than one way to skin a cat, that’s just how I go about it.
     
  6. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    @Mics152 How do you run/equip your hefty Zuyong core ? Looks like it could make for a good looking LI list :)
     
  7. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I am looking forward to this and taking IA for a N4 season, super happy with the new changes.

    To contribute, the Lieutenant discussion (strictly my POV, YMMV):
    Invincible Army has a number of interesting Lieutenant choices, being the first sectorial in N3 to leverage a Lieutenant with 2 Lt Orders and the NCO skill, allowing for useful immediate use of them on the field. This advante has been somewhat dilluted, but our Lt (and Command options like CoC and NCO) are still relevant and strong.

    IA has 15 profiles that can be Lts:
    - Zhanshi: our humble linefooter can be Lt for 11pts and no SWC, allowing for Lt shell games especially if you are taking a Zhanshi core and he/she blends with the rest.

    - Daoying: once a staple of the best possible Lt in YuJing, the Daoying as a Lt brings an extra Lt Order and a Camo Marker deployment for safety. He can be a simple BSG Camo for 22pts, a BSG HD Camo for 30 pts and no SWC, and a MSR Camo Minelayer for 34pts and just 1 SWC. He enjoys a -0.5 SWC reduction on the profiles, and all three profiles add something to the table.
    -- Daoying BSG 22pts 0 SWC: Cheapest Lt aside of the Zhanshi, provides 2Lt and can hide in Camo all game in your DZ.
    -- Daoying BSG HD 30pts 0 SWC: Lost some of the appeal now that he cannot buff remotes or help our ADs, but still a no SWC WIP14 BTS3 Hacker that can ARO Oblivion and Spotlight with ease, that can move uptable for an objective thanks to Camo State and be generally useful.
    -- Daoying MSR 34pts 1 SWC: A Camo Multisniper, for only 1SWC that bring a Mine for extra Camo shell games and zone defense. He can use his Lt Orders to shoot, or to lend to some NCO on the field. Now that special ammunition is more precious he is a worthy piece to consider.

    - Zuyong: a combi Lt for 26pts, or a HMG Lt for 36pts and 1 SWC. Not really a worthy consideration since Zuyongs will go to the frontline most times and our CoC options are limited. Biggest argument for him would be inside a Zuyong Pain Train if you are limited in slots in your list BUT if you are running a Zuyong Pain Train, you are most probably NOT hitting 15 models anyway.

    - YanHuo: the MHMG and HRMC can be Lt for no increase/discount on the base profile. Not really useful unless you are trying to confuse the opponent as to whom your Lt is.

    - ShanJi: our "premium" HI can bring a Lt in its MULTI Combi profile (36pts, 0 SWC same as the base profile) or in the HMG (44pts 1 SWC, -0.5SWC from the base profile). Since you are more likely using this premium guys in more interesting profiles for the cost (like the AP HMG or the HD profiles), they are difficult to justify.

    - Mowang: all three profile can be Lts for a SWC reduction, but since these guys are going to see the thick of battle most of the times it is bettter to stick with the NCO profiles and use somebody else´s Lt Order.

    - Qiang Gao: although he brings a Lt+1 option, his price point and general suit of abilities most likely covered by a ShanJi or Zuyong HMG make him an akward Lt.

    - Guija: our only and only TAG can be a Lt for a 0.5SWC increase. Could be worth it if you are planning to funnel all orders through the TAG (and it is bringing along an Engineer) but still a risky proposition.

    All in all, the Daoying remains our best and more reliable source of Lieutenants, due to:
    - Camo State
    - Lt+1 order
    - Good Specialist or Good lone shooter side-role.

    But when we are talking about aggressive Lts like the Mowang or ShanJi, one important thing to consider is our ability to lose the Lt and keep going. Looking at Chain of Command, we have three options:
    - HaiDao: a good CoC trooper, but with AVA3 and the ability to get more than one in a link, it will compete in desiderability with the MSV2 Sniper, the Engineer and the KHD profiles. Still the cheapest option at 26pts.
    - LeiGong SMG profile comes with CoC almost like a gift, and could be interesting to consider if you are planning on using him.
    - TaiShen: once the queen of links due to her NCO and CoC profiles, now eclipsed by other options but still quite relevant. If you have Tai in your lists and an extra 4pts, consider making her CoC for added security versus Lt decapitation attempts.

    Later, my thoughts on NCOs (and why only Krit and the HacTao matter).
     
  8. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Stealing this and adding it to the tactica
     
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  9. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Feel free. And also it can work as a conversation starter. I did run IA for the whole year but this is definitely my own ideas and opinions. Word of caution English is not my mother tongue so it may require editing.

    I expect to do a run-down on NCOs and applications and probably branch into my own Link Team arquetipes.
     
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  10. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Entire purpose of the tactica is to be a conversation starter and place where we can sharre our tactics and ideas.
     
  11. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    All this talk of LI is making me very upset ;)
     
  12. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    I 'think!' I see what you did there :D Thankfully in this case it just means I could focus solely into collecting a limited number of fantastic looking 'heavily armoured' models.
     
  13. Mics152

    Mics152 Member

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    lol!

    - One unit with NCO, used to always be Tai Sheng but now Krit is a totally viable choice.
    - At least one unit with TA, but the more the merrier (points permitting).
    - Always someone with a tin bot, never ever leave home without one!
    - A hacker, almost always the Haidao.
    - Someone with a big gun!
    - Use remotes to fill and sure up points, both the Son Bae & Pangguling FTO are great in it and i tend to run both.

    Thats my rules of thumb, luckily we now have a model that fills 3 of them for 49pts now.... and oh boys is that Shang Ji good.

    I do prefer Sheng in it as she is a great attack piece and as she has 2 extra orders with NCO she gets work done.
     
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  14. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    Speaking of Zuyong Cores, can anyone elaborate on how to run one successfully? I know it's only one way to run IA but I think it's a big draw for a lot of us and I have trouble using them effectively. They feel so damn exposed up in the midfield (particularly since the base Zuyong lacks DTWs), and trying to cover them with something like a Zhencha also feels iffy since the Zhencha is a) expensive, and b) one of our best specialists.

    In terms of general tactics, is the best way to run them really to just hammer down the opponent's big guns in the first turn? How do you deal with a suspected Noctifier or a camo and repeater-infested midfield? What if you go second? When is it worth leaving stuff out to ARO? Particularly since losing anything in an HI team really hurts.

    I used to rely on a Rui Shi as a disposable first attacker to go in and clear any initial threats, and I feel like the Lu Duan could cover that role as well. But is it better to just jam the core up there in the first place?

    One of my big issues is figuring out when to start falling back, and how to establish a defensible position for the inevitable counterattack. Are there any sort of rough guidelines you've come up for this?

    I find when you run an HI-core list, you've got a really small footprint, and it's hard to contest your opponent if you're second. It might be easier now with our new deployables. Is this when you bring the TR bot?

    I know some of these boil down to basic tactics and that daboarder's Massed Armor primer covers a lot of it, but I feel like there might be some additional tactics and options that leverage IA's strengths, and I'd love to hear about people's experiences with the Zuyong Core.
     
  15. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I do feel that some of that is general tactics, yes, but this is my experience with Zuyong Cores in N3:

    - All our cores will revolve around the HaiDao MSV2, generally, because he is Kamau-level of absurd. He will die, but it will stall an alpha just fine if you go second (and you need that because...)
    - You lack close quarters tools, like DTW*, and therefore you cannot allow the opponent come close to you. The mainstay of a Zuyong Core is the TA HMG (although the new ShanJi shadows him a bit. Think about it this way: you are dancing at arms length. You cannot let them "hug" you. The ideal range for confrontation is 16" or more.
    * this changed in N4, since shotguns now have Direct Templates. See below my suggested link.

    Now, that means that in very rare occasions you are pushing such a link upfield. That is the job of Zenchas, not Zuyong.

    What did N4 brought to us that is different?
    - 6-2 move. This is important to reposition through Cautious Move on all link member when you need to get across a firelane;
    - No more one Haidao only! No more choosing between the Sniper, the KHD and the Engineer!
    - Better ShanJi spearheads. The ShanJi getting TA HMG profiles shadow the Zuyong TA HMG, unfortunately;
    - Haris in all profiles. This is important because an actual Zuyong Haris is quite efficient if you are not doing a full Core;
    - Changes to Paramedic means that the Zuyong Paramedic can heal a below comrade in 12s, and a ShanJi in 14s. This is actually quite good.

    So, this was the "old" arquetype Zuyong Pain Train in N3 for many of us:
    upload_2020-10-13_17-8-33.png

    The Haidao Sniper could trade places with the Haidao KHD. You have a Panggy FTO to lower the cost, 8 wounds on our HI / Semi-HI, 7 orders plus 2 Lt Orders on TaiShen through NCO and a Daoying Lt.

    Now in N4 you have several options, our links became so much more flexible!

    One option:
    upload_2020-10-13_17-13-8.png
    A great KHD with a superior Tinbot (and a DTW), a better HMG, a HRL for those template blasts AND a DTW, and still packing the MSV2 Sniper for ARO duty.

    I would argue the BEST value there is the Haris with Zuyong Paramedic, ShanJi APHMG and Haidao KHD. That trio of mean mean people can push up a flank and obliterate almost every threat.

    We have a lot of options in our links now, but the above + a couple Zenchas + a Daoying, deploy like an anvil, watch them run. This is a solid base that I would run in tournaments in N3:
    upload_2020-10-13_17-20-56.png
     
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  16. Greysturm

    Greysturm Invincible Army Drill Sergeant/Military Theorist

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    Il get to it eventually in the tactica. Short of it is:

    In terms of general tactics, is the best way to run them really to just hammer down the opponent's big guns in the first turn?
    It depends on the enemy and terrain, sometimes you can do it and sometimes you cant you need to learn to recognize which is which.

    How do you deal with a suspected Noctifier or a camo and repeater-infested midfield?
    Noctifers are a problem for all fireteams and you can pretty much expect them if facing shasvasti/white banner, so keep them spread out or solo fighting until it shows itself. For the defense field remember deactivator is your friend and its not that difficult to open a breach if you are willing to take a wound/hack to do it.

    When is it worth leaving stuff out to ARO?
    It really depends on Location, Strategic need and what the opponent is gonna trow at you if you do.

    One of my big issues is figuring out when to start falling back, and how to establish a defensible position for the inevitable counterattack. Are there any sort of rough guidelines you've come up for this?
    Make a check when you are at 50% of their available orders of how many oprders its gonna take you to leave them in a desirable position and what you need to acomplish before settling there

    I find when you run an HI-core list, you've got a really small footprint, and it's hard to contest your opponent if you're second. It might be easier now with our new deployables. Is this when you bring the TR bot?
    Depends on the mission, sometimes its better to just cede board control and hammer the enemy next turn.
     
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  17. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    I shared my thoughts on Lieutenants and Chain of Command options, but we need to talk about NCOs.

    Invincible Army was the first Sectorial to showcase the NCO rule, and it meant a paradigm-shift in how we viewed and used Lts. Now, we could use an extra order (or two, with the first ever Lt level 2 - now Lt+1 order) directly in the field, without compromissing the actual Lieutenant, and it could even be used to activate a Link! Great!

    How does this work? Basically, a trooper with the NCO (Non-Comissioned Officer) skill can use the Lt Order(s) as if it was a Regular Order from the Order Pool. Furthermore, if said trooper is declared to be the Link Leader for a Fireteam, such Lt Order can be used to activate the link.

    In practical terms, this expands the amount of orders we have to use within the game.

    Our NCOs options in N3 where limited to TaiShen and the Mowang. Now, we have a few more. Let´s take a look at them.

    - TaiShen: our designated NCO, the rule made her an auto-include in a Zuyong fireteam. She can carry a MK12 or a Breaker Combi, which are quite good options linked for her to use the NCO extra orders. Unfortunately two big reasons with I picked her previously are no longer valid: her WIP 14 Flash Pulse no longer gets Fireteam bonuses, and the Tinbot (-6) is now available in other, more efficient profiles that you will probably take into your team. Starting at 39 pts she is also quite pricy for a glorified Zuyong (although her BS14 is better than any other unit she will likely link with).

    - Mowang: the Mowang is a midfield bully that can put the NCO orders to good use. ARM5, 3 effective wounds, mimetism (-3) and a solid complement of tools, his star got a bit of a dulling due to the improved ShanJi but all in all, if you are planning to run a beast into a quadrant and hold it, the Mowang is your boy.

    - Krit Kokram: Ahhh now we are talking. Remember I said TaiShen was a stable linkable NCO? This guy stole that place for me. For around the same points, he brings either our only linkable Feuerbach or a MULTI Rifle with +1 DMG. He is an engineer to solve those IMM issues the rest of the HI pain train may suffer (just be careful not to get HIM into IMM) and Burst 3 Heavy Pistols for close encounters. If you decide to NOT link him, he can also use the NCO orders quite well in the middle of the table. Forward Deployment 8in, he can deploy either an EM Mine or a Repeater through Minelayer, he has D-Charges, a Heavy Shotgun... very solid profiles running at 40pts hitting a lot of sweet spots.

    - HacTao: now we are talking big boys. The HacTao is the closest thing we have an ultra-elite, superiority Heavy Infantry everybody will envy. He costs like a TAG, and he is indeed a mini-TAG. Let´s talk the one NCO profile: the HMG.
    The HMG is a Burst-superiority weapon, and the HacTao can use it to hammer most units within range in the active turn. Mimetism (-6), Hidden Deployment to catch the enemy by surprise, Camouflage to chose the engagement and S2 to move freely between full cover to reach the best spot. If you need a unit that will perform similar to a TAG, this is the guy, and now he can fully use the Lt Orders our Daoyings generate. Just remember to pull back and cover him in the reactive, if possible in Camo State (remember you cannot be hacked until revealed!).
     
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  18. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
    Warcor

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    1st, do some math at the beggining of the game to know how many caps the EC player has deployed.

    2nd, A Fireteam core shouldn't be the the first turn attack vector. If you park the fireteam on midtable is gonna be more accesible to hacking, skirmishers, boarding shotguns and direct templates. You actually need to make such a mess in first turn to make it viable that it doesn't worth most of the times. A Noctifer shouldn't be such an issue during first turn.

    3rd, the point where you need to fall back depends on the proximity towards the enemy, the distance towards crosspath conrners and the weapons you pack. Always try to stay on the last 4" of your good ranges. IA Fireteams are weak/okish on close ranges (without hulang)

    4th, Durability in IA fireteams is nothing without a paramedic or two. Paramedic with B+1 onto PH12 is actually better than our zhanshi yisheng doctor

    5th, It seems Invincible is all about reactive shots and almost nothing about Zone denial. Zencha doesn't have minelayer option or midrange weapons, and Hulang with 1 madtrap will not be enough to make it change merely by itself. And krit FD will probably end up alone in midtable and needs a list built arround Him to work

    6th, Our linkable engineers will not be able to make the work done. We don't have Remote presence Estructure troops and our engineers are hackable and E/M vulnerable, so the solution to the altered states is negated by the problem itself. Engineers can't take self negative effects. so Krit doesn't have protection against all that shit
     
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  19. SturmOgre

    SturmOgre New Member

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    This might just be on my end, but are the picture embeds not showing up for anyone else?
     
  20. infyrana

    infyrana Well-Known Member

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    @SturmOgre They haven't always for me either on the desktop (just get [​IMG]the 'img' tag), but they do on a hand held.

    Willen's army images above show up, but Mc_Clane's image at the bottom doesn't.
     
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