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First Review of N4 profiles, changes and opinions

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Spitfire_TheCat, Sep 26, 2020.

  1. Xince

    Xince Member

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    Yup Zondnautica feels better imho, yes the smoke launcher now sucks but with the changes ton MSVs it makes sense.
    Still an impetuous smoke and that's nice, also changes to impetuous move makes it able to avoid some LoF easier.

    Also no more malus on bike dodges, which Can really be good even though it's niche and Zondnautica lack dodge(+Xcm) to Make perfect use of it.

    But you get to Scream "Tetsuoooooo" in Nomad language. The hacker Can go push buttons and set up so it Can ARO hack, i would have loved a KHD profile though.

    Puppetactica otoh are just perfect for suppressive fire when going second. Not so sold on the hacker as he has to share skills with puppets, so in some cases you may have to choose between hack ARO/idle puppets or idle master/shooty puppets when you would want to hack/shoot.
    But they are just so great anyway, and the feeling of having 13models in a 10man list is wonderful
     
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  2. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    I am relieved to see the Zondnautica costs come down.

    At the higher cost, it would still be worth running the Hacker in Supplies, Countermeasures, Highly Classified, or Unmasking. Running the other profiles we're not really looking that good, and running two was pretty much off the table.

    The new costs are just right for the Spitfire and BSG. The Hacker looks at little under costed to me but I'm not going to complain.

    I'm looking forward to putting two of these guys back on the table.
     
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  3. wendigo

    wendigo Nomad Artichoke

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    I want to run two real bad but I am holding out for another sculpt, although I don't expect one. There isn't any decent proxy that I can think of as I don't play any other factions with motorcycles (or S5 robots for that matter).
     
  4. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    Ran the new Grenzer MSR in a Sec Core with an Interventor, what a sweet defensive link. Offensively, a B3 BS19 or at worst BS16, isn’t had either.

    Unrelated, isn’t it funny the non-SJ Perseus is the one that can join HM?
     
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  5. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    I've run him 3 times now and in two of them he's won a couple of FtF rolls and taken 6 to 8 orders to dislodge.

    The third game was versus ForCo in Firefight starting reactive, but with Hannibal's shenanigans and Bolts starting at the 20" line; I didn't dare leave him out in that game and he didn't end up doing much. Bolts are super strong now for the same reason this Grenzer is good. Marksman is the new FAT2 lol.
     
  6. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    It is pretty strong. I wish Zhayedan were able to be linkable with Ghulam in RTF to share the fun.

    In my game, the Grenzer failed 1 F2F after rolling a 6 and a 20, then precedes to roll atleast one die above 15 every other F2F.
     
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  7. Elric of Grans

    Elric of Grans Well-Known Member

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    A Su Jian? If you have the skill, you could add a Nomad model riding on the mobility mode version, then use the combat mode mini for dismount (and a second version of your riding model for the dismounted Zondnaut). Infernal-fluff, you could view it as your force captured and repurposed a Su Jian after a previous engagement. Maybe paint 'Yu Jing suxx' down the side?
     
  8. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I wanna get some takeaways out and on 'paper'. I went through each faction and tagged units that I thought felt rather good in N4, regardless of if they were buffed, nerfed or stayed the same. Nomads had by far the most selections. Haven't perused the thread, but I did notice that the OP was lacking a lot of details. So gonna post with fresh eyes and then go back to see what everyone has picked up - I imagine most or all of this is already covered.

    Gonna focus on the things that seem like Nomad Strengths in vanilla, but not on hacking - I am totally clueless about hacking! So obviously the faction will be even stronger one I wrap my head around that stuff. Also not looking at guided missile yet, but I feel they are probably a premier faction for that.

    Edit: Am updating this as I see other people's input, to use it as a resource for building my Nomad army lists.

    Tactical Window: My Nomad project was strictly 19+ order lists, so it definitely hurts that. No idea what elite Nomad lists looked like in the past, but since everyone is in the same boat I reckon Nomads will be fine and can probably transition to elite units better than the equivalent Ariadna lists.

    Cheap Orders
    Moderators: 0 SWC LT option. Less of a radical change than before with the Securiate, but now have access to it without paying so many points. 27pt for 3 orders and three possible LT is not bad, but harder to fit than before due to tactical window.
    Jaguars: Still a top tier order monkey, and got better at CC
    Flash Bots: 7 points and 2x AVA​

    Warbands
    Morlock: Assault pistol got cheaper, and that profile was so damn good before. Impetuous change is great.
    Chimera: Now excellent at CC (24+MA2+NBW+ikohl+viral+buddies, jesus) also provides eclipse smoke, great at clearing mines or multi-discovers on a camo midfield. I love this unit. Impetuous change hugely improves this unit alongside other expensive x-impetuous units from N3, doesn't need to be babysat or held back from climbing+ into kill zones like before. So stoked for this girl.​

    Sweepers
    Intruder HMG: Always good, always expensive. Morlocks are great smoke. Tactical window hurts use of Morlocks, but buffs use of expensive units like this. Overall, still great.
    TR Bot: Harder to aimbot these now, but the EVO Hacker seems to fit very easily into Nomads compared to other armies. Plentiful and great engineers. Falls prone when KO. Climbing+ to come down from its defensive perch and attack. These are so incredible now.
    Taskmaster HMG: Not super exciting, but does pack minelayer defense and enough CC to deter that approach.
    Kriza HMG: Flat mimetism on a B5 HMG, no link required. Will purge the rooftops.
    Lizard: A TAG, does TAG stuff, which includes clearing ARO. Way cheaper, but definitely one of the least interesting options. Maybe pair with the missile bot to have another vector for your indirect attacks. Good engineer options and hacking defense support this well.
    Szalamandra: I love the model, but have never liked Hypercannon TAGs as they just do more of what TAGs already dominated at. Killer hacker pilot is something though. Good engineer and hackers support this well, and the BTS 9 is great at bouncing hackers that get through.
    Moira HMG: -6 HMG can have an advantage in certain firefights, is a passable option with some upsides but I generally prefer the Intruder
    Attackers
    Hellcat Spitfire: Bare bones AD Spitfire, with potential to AD on 18s with an EVO. Fantastic
    Hollow Men Spitfire: Super jump, 2W Spitfire
    Riot Grrl Spitfire: MSV1, 2W Spitfire
    Sombras Red Fury: 1.9W skirmisher red fury
    Prowler: Hidden deployment, specialist, skirmisher Spitfire.
    Kusanagi: Mimetism -6, BS 14, 1.9 wounds, specialist Spitfire.
    Evader: Specialist or Engineer AP Spitfire with 1.9 wounds and HI statline. Fix your TR REM, free up the clockmaker slot, and make YJ players salty - whats not to like
    Zondnautica Spitfire: Never had luck with bikers in the past, but this does seem like one of the cooler and better ones - though you do pay for that privilege.
    Puppetactica: Lost much of what made them nuts, namely the B2 WIP14 flash pulse ARO. They seem to retain a lot of the other things that made them great - cheap wounds, throwaway attacking unit. Are these good now or are they past their prime?
    Gecko: MULTI Marksman Rifle (+1B) combined with templates, good ARM and 3 STR means makes this a good attack piece. Not a fan of the MK12 but it does have some selling points such as the Blitzen
    Heckler Red Fury: A cheap, forward deploying Red Fury with one use marker and mimetism. Weaker than the other options but has its place and is cheaper than the alternative skirmisher SWC weapon choices.
    Vostok ODD Mk12 / Albedo Red Fury (+1B): Two solid combat remote options in a faction which has a higher incentive to run the EVO bot. I still feel burst is king and so rate the Red Fury, but have seen enough strong Bulleteers to know that an ODD 6-4 REM with marksmanship is a force to be reckoned with.
    Bandit: I don't particularly like this one, but he comes recommended from other players as an aggressive skirmisher/attacker with a variety of options including EM Mines, CC and AP rounds from the Boarding Shotgun. Can take on TAGs and heavy targets at the start of the game.
    Carlotta, Tomcat Sgt: Any Parachutist (Dep.Zone) is worth considering. A BS 13 Breaker Combi with B2 ADHL, as well as D-Charges and optional helperbot to maybe go melee some people. The Combi is a legitimate option against TAGs and the B2 ADHL, while unreliable, has a very high ceiling if you can hit with it.

    Skirmishers
    Zero: More expensive, but still one of the best skirmishers in the game
    Moran: Gained camo state, not sure if changes to koalas are any good, but makes a great defensive screen of camo or repeater + koala
    Sombras: Expensive, 1.9 W pseudo HI Skirmisher. The KHD or HD comes rated by other players as an aggressive toolbox which can tackle many situations within short to medium range, though you certainly pay for the privilege. The specialist seems to fill a similar role, losing offensive hacking to gain hacker immunity, retain scoring, and gain AP Mines and a Breaker Combi to take on hard targets in a different way. Seems too expensive for my tastes but is worth trying out.
    Libertos: Time will tell if 1 SWC is spare for this guy or not. Always used to be with my 19+ order lists, but things have changed and there are so many great spitfires now.
    Heckler KHD: Can use Cybermask to re-enter marker state, which drastically changes how he plays vs the other Hecklers. Cybermines give some oompf against heavy targets, and the B4 assault pistol gives more close in firepower than a Zero.
    Heckler Jammer: A good defensive option, with Jammer right off the bat and Fastpanda repeaters after that to spread a Repeater web and support hackers or guided missiles.
    Overall: Tons of great options in most of the things that are good in Infinity. Particularly stoked for all the great spitfires and specialist spitfires, the chance to actually use hacking and EVO programs, as well as the Chimera (hell yes!) and cheaper 0 SWC LT capability. Still feels weak at direct BS ARO capability outside of TR bots, but those are much better in this faction than in others and better now in general so should be fine.
     
    #128 WiT?, Oct 10, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  9. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Funnily in your summary you summarize some of the problems with N4 and the work done on Nomads:
    First: Better Close Combat: We'll see if this is any meaningfull with DTW around every corner. Every other trooper packs either a DTW or a Shotgun, so we'll see if the Martial Artists we see some use. And ...
    Second: If TR Bots are our only BS ARO then ... Sineaters just got ignored. Both by you as well as by N4 ... And that's just sad.
     
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  10. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I've never liked Sin Eaters. A real bully unit, either it shuts them down completely or dies completely, very binary in its effect and not enjoyable for me to use. The TR bot is more likely to partially shut them down, survive, then partially shut them down again. More consistent, less of a "check or die" for your opponent, and able to give consistent value over the game through its reliability and switching to offense.

    Honestly, for me the issue with MA is that everyone and their dog got free CC, and everyone left over after that is MA2 upgrading to +3/-3. Its hard for martial artists to find targets these days. But at least it did get cheaper!
     
  11. dexterv

    dexterv Well-Known Member

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    Hello everyone! With the new spotlight mechanic (ARO and the state doesn't dissapear at the end of the turn) is it time to take the vertigoes (guided missile launcher REMs) out of the car hole?
     
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  12. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Probably.
     
  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Tested this thing multiple times, its both incredibly underwhelming and under performing, it's hacker counterparts are just infinitely better.

    The hacker profiles are amazing and pack a great weapons toolbox and thanks to C+ and marker state can really leverage them to devastating effect. Had one of these collapse entire flanks single handed and win games in everygame in a recent (weekend just past) tournament and in the testing games leading up to it through just using the MR+LSG and not even leveraging the KHD. Where as the RF, kinda just bounced off of everything and died, just because it's B4 doesnt mean it's good.

    MIssile bot maybe, theyre cheap and can be stuck on a long firelane for conventional ARO duty, what is more likely and probably a better use of points is sticking a GL in a fire to take advantage of in the event of.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Re: Sombras. That's an interesting change for N4: AP B3 > Shock/Normal B4. I'm not sold on the KHD being necessarily better though: being a Hacker gives another vulnerability vector that needs to be accounted for. My experience with Bandit KHDs has always been "mostly it's fine, often it's useful, but occasionally it's *seriously* annoying". I think in Vanilla the RF probably competes with the RF Heckler: the Heckler is significantly cheaper, and a 24" gun can generally afford to be more fragile as it's less likely to fight in the more deadly 8" range band.

    Re: Sin Eaters. Realistically they (more than pretty much anything else) show the deleterious effect of Shock. If Shock wasn't a thing then we'd be able to relatively reliably stand them back up again due to ARM3 + Dr Re-rolls. Before N4 dropped I was loudly and often saying "one of the biggest determinants of whether expensive 1W troops will be viable or not is whether Shock stays as it is" and then Kusanagi gets I(S) and we now think she's playable but Sin Eaters didn't and we think they probably aren't worth it.

    Shock is a problem: it negatively effects troops that already struggle mechanically, while being virtually meaningless against cheap 1W troops or expensive 1.9W/2W troops.

    Re: Vertigos. They're actually quite solid DZ defence. If you can find a back corner where they're out of LOF, you can often cover vs AD and other rambos pushing into you backline, with maybe a little bit of a table edge firing line. Something where your opponent needs to spend a chunk of orders to get to, and the only advantage of doing so is to kill the Vertigo.

    It then gives you the option to drop Guided shots on an opportunity basis, but don't really both to spend lots of orders making it happen: hell, you probably don't need to actually spend orders on them to get good value as your opponent spends extra Short Skills declaring Reset to clear Targetted to avoid giving you easy Guided targets in your turn.

    Basically, I find that they're not a bad option to have in a list even if I agree that they probably shouldn't be a god to strategy.

    Re: Sweepers. Solo Moira HMG is probably still a useful option, particularly if you're running a 'cheerleader' LT. Shock vulnerability and an inability to contest vs top-tier AROs is it's biggest downsides. Intruder HMG probably still out-performs it given the utility of MSV2 unless you really leverage NCO for extra efficiency. It's certainly something I'll try-out (albeit probably in lower-point games where the efficiency of NCO really starts to show).

    Vostok ODD is the other unit I'd have included here (or as an attacker). 6-4 C+ with ODD is simply excellent with or without an EVO to buff it. It's also one of the obvious options for a T1 Suppression Fire if going second: 2W Courage, ODD and a DAM16 gun, I(AP) and 2 UNC states means that it's very hard to remove if deployed conservatively to stop an Alpha.

    MMR Gecko is another stand-out unit. 16-24" B4 DAM15 AP with ARM9 in cover. Sure it doesn't have the raw stats to brute force down Suppresion Fire / ODD / TO tags on its own. But paired with Hackers who can ARO IMM-B or Targetted them to make the swing and it's simply one of the best finishers in it's price range. It remains cheap enough that you can still build a list that will survive if it gets removed by a turn 1 alpha, so it - somewhat - still fulfills it's old distraction carnifex role. The changes to ARM and Crits also improve the Pilot: it's now a lot more difficult to remove an UNC Gecko from the board, which means that being able to use the Pilot once the TAG is destroyed is a lot more likely (my experience in N3 was once my TAGs were UNC they rapidly got taken to Dead).

    Re: Attackers. I still think the Bandit is still an excellent attack option for N4. Primarily the BSG. That's because it provides a relatively cheap Big Game Hunter with the combo of B2 AP DAM 14 and EM Mines. Nomads organically have a lot of options to slow or stop TAGs and tougth-HI, but putting them down is something you need to ensure you consider in list building. The BSG Bandit is excellent in this role.

    Carlotta is the other one I'd put in here. I think she's a sometimes food, but certainly something you should take several times to build a reputation for liking within your local meta. Fear of her is going to be almost as good as actually using her.

    Re: Skirmishers. To add to @WiT? guide. I think he's glossed over Hecklers. Both the Jammer and the KHD Heckler got better in N4 (or at the very least stayed the same).
    * The Heckler Jammer because Repeater coverage is back to being a universally good thing and the Fast Panda makes it into a solid attacking option when used in concert with your hacckers: time will tell if they've over nerfed Jammers (my initial response is they have), but it's still solid for getting of 1 or 2 critical jams in a game in a meta that has (initially at least) seen it's natural counters decrease in pick-rate.
    * The Heckler KHD because the Heckler is now hands down the most accessible Marker state KHD in both Vanilla and TJC. It's primary competitor - the Zero KHD - loses a lot of utility for the same cost: Zero KHDs pay a lot for the ability to deploy over the half-way line, something I have literally never done with them. The other important take-away is that Cybermines have significantly improved in this edition: IMM-B is better than IMM-1 and the targets they effect are more common (including, importantly, marker state HI).
     
  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, wish I could like this post twice. There is a ton here that I either misevaluated or simply missed which I will stick on my prior post so I can use it as a resource. Particularly since I have probably hacked stuff probably three times in my last three big events, and primarily play Tohaa. My idea of hacking is "I have a killer hacker, he goes to your hacker and does the hacker kill power thing" then reread the hacking chart again to see wtf that actually was, then realize I had a repeater I'd forgotten again that could have saved orders, then promptly go back to not using him. Its a huge blind spot for me so bombshells like "Heckler KHD can re-enter marker state" are sorely needed.

    The Heckler RF definitely flew under my radar, as any forward deploying, marker state SWC weapon is worth lookign at. Its cheap (24 & 1 swc is a good price) but I don't love it, mainly because of single use marker. I've just been endlessly punished by markers for years and years against Ariadna so I've seen how insane that ability can be. This is a new edition without the order pools to power endless marker shenanigans, but it will take a while for that mindset to sink in.

    I 100% agree with this. Not a fan of skills that simply counter other skills, like the N2 era MSV1 or our current NBW.

    I like the missile bot as a threat rather than a practical unit - it does seem like a massive drain on orders though I haven't tried the repeater spotlight ARO idea for them. The idea that "if I clump up, boom" or "if I leave my valuable dudes anywhere near repeater access, boom" will likely have more of an effect than the actual missiles. Really similar to Impersonator shock, except you spread out the effect over multiple turns instead of hugely impacting just the starting deployment.

    They seem especially good in the sectorials that can link them, so they double as a passable missile launcher too.

    Maybe. I take a lot of baggage from fighting an aggressive Ariadna player into my Infinity philosophy, and one element of that is how easily expensive 1W units (ok... actually just non-marker units) die to random chain rifles or berserks or speculative fire or Uxia-style assassins. I'd rather pay the extra points for Intruder marker state, and rely more on suprise shot or smoke if the extra -3 is needed. Moira would do better against some of the scary linked ARO (and neutral or worse against others due to mimetism and visors...) but otherwise I just can't see it as is.

    I kind of glossed over this as "just another remote symbol in with the other remotes". Nomads are pretty much the only faction I'd want to run an EVO in for aimbot, and with that this thing would get quite strong. I kind of like that B5 Albedo Red Fury more than I like the -6 MK12, but I might be stuck in the "burst is king" mindset that dominated N3 (still not convinced it isn't true in N4).

    This is definitely an omission, I definitely rate the Geckos compared to before. I consider the Gecko more of an "attacker" than a Sweeper, because its not afraid to get right up in their shit and hurl its ARM 6 3W around, dealing damage and then absorbing orders before exploding in a glorious fireball. Yeah it can get hacked or CC'd, but then its like 50 points its not the end of the world. I also like the B5 pilot.

    Fighting armor is definitely a consideration now, but I'm not certain I would want to rely on the Bandit to do it. He's quite expensive for what he is, and is irregular when not being used for this role. The shotgun is not a fantastic option for cracking TAGs as its often within HFT range to get good odds, and is in the same camp as something like a combi rifle for attacking in general (IIRC it was within a few % of combi effectiveness). I don't like attacking with B3 or worse if I can avoid it, its just feels too dicey and open to some bad rolls and dying. I like the EM mine a lot, but I am not impressed with the CC - have seen this statline with DA CCW fail in this job before. If there was a D-Charge Bandit I would definitely consider it.

    I was slack here, every single Parachutist (Dep Zone) is worth looking at and I didn't see this one, though I will admit she is not my favourite. Moriarty + D Charges seems interesting if inconsistent with CC 15. Breaker Combi isn't amazing but it is a nice back up ARM breaker and at BS 13 overcomes some of the and the B2 Glue Gun is likewise a bit dicey but has a really high potential payoff. I am well acquainted with the fear factor that certain units can do - got Duroc'd years back and never forgot it

    I'm not convinced that it is better than a Zero KHD, but you are right that I have underrated this. I just forgot that cybermask is a thing - yes, hacking is that big of a blind spot. He brings +1 BS, +1 ARM and Assault Pistol and Cybermines vs another 4" deployment (thats what I pay for, not going past the line) and regular mines. I typically take two Zero KHD, but I could see this being one of each though not two Hecklers due to the lost deployment space.

    I particularly like the idea that the cybermines give him some kill power against hard targets - something that the Zero is definitely lacking. Place mine, force dodge or shoot ARO on the target. The B4 assault pistol can definitely hurt even TAGs if you flank them, with the extra burst helping make up for being pretty weak.

    The Jammer I might agree after I do some hacking, for now I just see Disposable 2, on a platform that rarely ever got off two Jammer attacks, and recoil in horror.

    Interesting. I come from a background of primarily Tohaa against primarily Ariadna, so will be the first to say that I don't even consider the hacker rules. Thats one of the reasons I've been drawn to Nomads! I've yet to see the Red Fury be bad, but maybe with some HI gaining ARM thats a thing now. Very much in the B4 = good and B3 = dicey camp at the moment. Will give both elements a go as soon as I can tee up a non-Ariadna opponent to test against
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    A lot of my recent games with it have been against TAK (One of which I actually ran out of targeted token), and found the RF to just either outright bounce off of them or miss, the LSG helps with the second part as well as offer some real shitty decision making on their part and the MR is great at taking down the light stuff or putting dents in the tankier things, and the threat of a DA round from under a marker plus the DTW or +6 BS attack makes people hesitant to approach it.

    Even when playing against ariadna dont underestimate the impact of hacking, with the amount of vis mods they throw around and the cover changes being able to light them up with spotlight can really swing firefights in your favour.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    So the Bandit vs TAG is a quintessential Nomad unit: it's merely good to OK when used on its own.

    It's REALLY good when you use it to mess up a TAG that's been IMM'd already. But it's cheap enough and has enough utility that you can find a use for it even if you don't need to explicitly go TAG hunting with it.
     
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  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    If you have token state or AD you should be trying to not be seen. There's a reason why all our ADHL have one of those skills as well.
     
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  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Sombra KHD worked really well for me in the games so far. Would like to try the Spec Op profile though, Breaker Combis are probably well strong now, and Mines are always useful

    Also the Intruder is definitely a scalpel now. There's a lot of deadly links out there, I use the Sniper to outrange nasty HMGs and such, and to pick off things from very long odd angles. Really love the Intruder, no lie, but it's definitely a precision instrument even more than it was in late N3 (and in late N3 it was definitely very much not the link killer it once was).
     
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  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I'f been using them to open holes for other stuff (primarily the sombra or bandit) to exploit so I can force a piece into their lines and start inflicting large amounts of casualties.
     
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