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Vanilla CA in N4, the good, the bad and the line troops

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Erbent, Oct 8, 2020.

  1. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

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    I just had to put that joke in the title, sorry. This is a mish-mash of overall first impressions of N4 and a quick unit review(?), hopefully someone will find it useful, or maybe it'll serve as a starting point for making a vanilla CA guide for N4.

    Any input on units, tactics, list building, etc. would be more than welcome.



    After a brief break from infinity I hopped right back into playing as soon as N4 dropped, and it's a blast to play. I'd like to share some toughts on the changes for our vanilla army, since it's the one I have the most experience with.

    At this point I've played a couple of test games and a 3 round tournament, so there's still a lot of things to try out and re-learn.


    A short summary on my veiw of CA by the end of N3 - internal balance was kinda whack, with a philosophy of "make units cost more, ask questions later" it all ended up separated in 3 categories:

    1) a backbone of the army, mostly cheap for what they do, nearly no-brainer choices - Noctifer ML, Q-drone HMG, Ikadrons, R-drones, Imetrons, BSG Kurgat if you don't need a doctor, Krakots/Datuazis with chain rifles, and of course the libertos.

    2) a beatstick of choice - Sheskiin with fatality L2 was kinda nuts, Charontid MSV3 HMG, Anathematic LT hacker, Sphinx or Avatar - take one, add nigh everything from the first category, and you have something between 50 to a100 points to take some of the more specialised units.

    3) the unfortunate souls that were all the units in 20-50 points bracket and were either too squishy or just not good enough at their role, some were decent but situational picks, some didn't really see the table all that much.

    This might be a bit exadurated, but essentially by the end of edition I gave up on trying to play the meta of 15+ orders and just went bananas on double TAG/EI aspect lists, even managed to score my only first place at a local tournament with those, though with a good bit of luck involved.




    Now, let's get into the new and shiny N4:

    Overall changes are great, our best and most expensive units got cheaper, some units from the 3rd category got cheaper and better in a lot of cases, and the old no-brainers ended up beign less of an autoinclude, though Noctifer ML and Q-drone HMG are still our best ARO choices.

    With the game-wide limitation of 15 troopers max tere's less pressure to get MOAR orders, so that's good for TAG and HI focused lists, though there's more tools to counteract that, so it's not a best choice in all situations. (already got my avatar nuked by core linked orc with feuerbach, ouch)



    I'll try to go over all the units in the ARMY7 order with at least a bit of an opinion of changes/overall for N4:

    1) Morat Vanguard Infantry
    okay, can we just get a 1-2 point decrease on ALL our basic Line troops? Like, pretty please? or give them something more, in a world of AVA 4 daturazi and cheaper REMs AND veteran on Imetrons, I just can't see myself bringing these guys ever, and the models are soo good, sure, Heavy pistol and BTS3 are nice additions, but they still don't do it for me.

    2) Unidron Batroids
    And here I was going to booo on them, but they actually seem like a nice choice now with the +3 to discover and dodging on 10's with +1" just because reasons? Still not likely to take them, but at least they provide something unique in their point cost, and spitfire is a decent backup attacker.

    3) Fraacta drop unit
    Not much changed here, still a good AD choice, got sorta better at hacking because of how programms changed.

    4) Umbra Legates
    Just an overall improvement, with FD+8, NCO and shock immunity I like them a lot more, still pricy though.

    5) Maakrep Trackers
    Mostly the same, but regeneration is better now and new 6th sense is a big boost too, might be a good ARO sniper or a cheaper alternative to charontid

    6) Rodok
    Not impressd with them, maybe take an HMG for a non hackable attack pice, 4-4 MOV is good.

    7) The Charontid
    Good old beatstick, MSV3 HMG LT is still the best option, got a bit cheaper and a LT+1 order for sepsitor profile, maybe will try it ut at some point. Oh and Plasma going from teardrop to circular impact is a nerf in my eyes, it's so much easier to avoid getting multiple models hit now. Also HD+ charontid got better with everything other than killing hackers, which it can't do now. As a side note, regular HMG feels not as good now with buffed ARM, getting at least shock would be nice.

    8) Raicho
    Was my favorite tag at the end of N4, getting cheaper is good, losing impact template on a shotgun kinda kills the potential for agressive plays, but HRL option is nice and cheap, immunity to crits helps, and ECM -3 against hacking is a nice bonus.

    9) Avatar
    Hello? What? FOUR orders on the Avatar? Yes please, at 118 / 2.5 it's just so much easier to build a well rounded list, strategos is not as good but whatever, now it's a lot better, though specialised anti-TAG guns are sort of scarier. Still, I ,anaged to tank a whole 6 orders of shooting from linked orc feurbach while resetting out of Isolated and IMM-B, and If I was a tad bit luckier it would actually survived. Definetly a big winner, of N4, just don't get too greedy trying to fit in the charontid with it like I did and you'll do fine, and do the usual safety measures of leaving an option to guts in total cover and don't just run in your opponent's deployment turn 1.

    10) The Shrouded
    Big win, much good. I'll be taking them regularly now, point drops bring them closer to the rest of camo infiltrators, regeneration works better, though Dazer feels unnescessary now without the saturation zone.

    11) Malignos
    Still pricey, not too much different from other Hidden deployment mimetism -6 infiltrators, take it if you need it.

    12) Speculo Killers
    She just doesn't work for me, didn't do it in N3, and with worse crits on monofilament CCW I'm not sure if I'll be taking her to bring down the TAG's, she's a nice distraction and potential threat that your opponent can't ignore thogh. If only we had minelayer in vanilla, if only.

    13) Daturazi
    Chain rifle is still the one and only option for me, now with +1B and DA CCW, were good in N3, got a bit better in N4.

    14) The hungries
    Gakis are nice when you can't squeese in Taighas, Pretas are somewhat better at trading with templates than Taighas, take one or two to cover your DZ or trade up.

    15) Med-tech obsidon medchanoids
    Say good bye to the smg, it's not like we needed it that much, also no more journalist, eh. at 22 points and with a price raise on Kurgats it is your go-to for all repairs and heals, you'd probably take it in most lists.

    16) M-drone
    1 point chepaer, can go prone, still good cheap specialist.

    17) Le muet
    take it if you want more mimetism -6 aro's, I'd probably take it after Noctifer ML and Malignos sniper just because of hidden deployment.

    18) Q-drone
    still the best TR REM, even better with going prone, stick it on a roof and if it didn't lost 3 wounds repair it back up.

    19) T-drone
    I still don't belive in guided missiles, change my mind.

    20) R-drone
    that 1 point decrease should have gone to Vanguards, seriously, it was fine at 8 points.

    21) Seed-soldiers
    FO's a good cheap midfield specialist, DEP updated to pancerfaust is nice

    22) Cadmus
    Daisy-chaining decoys made it pretty good in N3, now it feels less good without that reliability, Taryots seem better for combat jumping in.

    23) Haiduks
    Didn't really change, still a good cheap MSV, I don't care about not getting guided MSR, and ability to put it in supressive in foxhole makes it a great DZ defense.

    24) Noctifer ML
    other profiles still don't exist for me in vanilla at AVA1, still our best ARO choice

    25) Kurgats
    got buffed stats, AP mines are interresting, but they're one of the few units that ended up costing too much while being a good cheap alternative to Dr. Worm in N3, don't think I'll be taking them.

    26) Yaogat
    B3 what? B3 Multi-what? B3 Multi-sniper with AP/Shock/DA? Shut up and take my money! I'll definetly pick one up, it's a great all-round long range attack piece that can moonlight as a decent ARO pice, I would maybe even take two for redundancy, though I'll need to test it first.

    27) Rasyat
    You meant Van Zant? just with this change it got a very interresting niche for itself amongst all our AD options, it's a rlatively pricey finess pice, but will definetly catch some people off-guard, and it can do a lot of different things, so I'll probably get one, the model is great.

    28) Skiavoros
    Are actually GOOD, didn't think I'll see the day. Got a price drop, gives you a 5th command token cheaper than the Avatar, still sad for no hacker LT, but the spitfire seems interresting.

    29) Sogorat
    Basically Raicho light, a good tanky HI to deal with opposing HI's and TAG's, both loadouts, with an NCO if you feel like it.

    30) Anathematics
    I basically got into infinity and CA because of the model, and it's just great, though again I'm sad for the plasma template change, and that we still didn't get a sepsitor/spitfire LT. On the good side - getting trinity that is actually quadruplity is great, and the crit change helps, LT hacker is still great choice for specialist oriented missions.

    31) Sphinx
    Cheapr and just as killy, a tad better at CC, never a bad choice for your attack pice.

    32) Zerat
    They got pretty good by the end of N3 with red fury, now they're even better with mimetism going up to -6 and 0 SWC minelayer with LFT is spicy good.

    33) Aida Swanson
    Can't see the reason to take her, whatever.

    34) Slave drones
    take one or two, basically the same as all the helper bots

    35) Imetrons
    Now hese are basically morat brains in a jar, somebody please make an imetron conversion like that. seriously, with changes to cobat jump and getting Veteran the already good and cheapest order generators are even better. On a side note - with going to unconscious, shock immunity and being a troper these are easy targets for classifieds, but it's super easy now to hide the in your DZ, so that's not a big problem.

    36) Libertos
    Do I even need to explain this one? I so hoped that CB would nerf them a bit with N4, but apparently I'll have to get one now.

    37) Caliban
    Didn't change a lot, but D-charging with Protheion is so much fun, godd specialist and maybe try MSV1 Spitfire.

    38) Raktorak
    They're a wildcard for the sectorial, don't see much point for them in vanilla.

    39) Suryats
    AP immunity is plenty good, MSV1 HRL for ARO is a decent option, though still outcompeted by Noctifer ML, take it if you need a reasnably cheap HI.

    40) Oznat
    the one with sync pretas seems interresting, might take it at some point.

    41) Ikadron
    still a good cheerleader, though nerfed a bit by baggage not providing bonus points.

    42) Sheskiin
    Even without crits on 1's she's still a beast in both shooting and CC, ANd non-hackable. Did I mention D-charges with protheion?

    43) Kornak
    LT option is gone from vanilla, but you'd probably take skiavoros anyway. Still though, shock immunity is good addition. He's nothing special, take him if you want to.

    44) Treitak Anyat
    Got some decent weapons, but you'd probably leav her for fireteams in MAF.

    45) Corax Hasht
    got a point cheaper and is a nice combo of Spitfire and specialist with nanoscreen and shock immunity, can both shoot its way up to objectives and do missions.

    46) E-drone
    Hella cheap at 18 points, even with changes to hacking, if you want some buffs then take it, though having 0 offensive/defensive hacking is kinda bad, still the best EVO in the game though.

    47) Umbra samaritans
    Still kinda too expensive, but at least got shock immunity, Nourkias seems better though.

    48) Nexus
    Seems like an Onyx only choice at this point, not my type of unit.

    49) Xeodron Batroids
    6-2 MOV good, K1 marksman and SWC discount good, just an all-round good bang for your buck.

    50) Krakot renegades
    With a buff for Daturazi I don't feel like taking them.

    51) Overdron
    Getticng cheaper is good, again a bit sad for plasma, SMG on an HRL is odd but pretty useful for supressive, if only the PSR got it too.

    52) Bit & KISS
    Mostly the same, but with changed KHD and Oblivion upgrade, good for hacing DZ protection and all that stuff.

    53) Kerr-nau
    Same as nexus for me, better to use it in Onyx.

    54) Nox
    They're okay, Zappers are cool but still feels too pricey for what they do.

    55) Mentor
    Take an Lt if you want counterintelligence, but I'd rather take a Mnemonica Lt or an agressive LT with Caliban Chain of command.

    56) Jayth
    Aaaand another one that got hit with a price increase, at 35 pts red fury was somewhat of an alternative to Noctifer spitfire, but at 38 I think I'll pass.

    57) Taigha
    Got nerfed and rightfully so, got not as stupidly good at CC, and are still good at covering the DZ with templates and the usual warband stuff.

    58) Cube Jager
    a nice and cheap Parachutist specialist, SMG feels better most of the time.

    59) Grief operator
    Impersonation at 20 points is such a bargain, and sticking it in cover with supression fire for command toketn is a good distraction at 12 points cheaper than the speculo.

    60) Victor Messer
    Do you need HD+? then maybe take him, but at this price without shock immunity I'll pass.

    61) Octavia Grimsdottir
    Thank you, I'll stick with a noctifer.

    62) Boarding action Sheskiin
    at 9 points more than the regular and being hackable, and without nanoscreen, dont like it to be honest.

    63) Nourkias
    Hella pricey, will absolutely stomp almost anything in CC, apparently there was not enough umbras, the model's cool though.

    64) Agent Dukash
    Its profile is all over the place and costs so much, no thanks.

    65) Sargosh
    same as Dukash, tbh.

    66) Ko-Dali
    She's SUCH a glass canon, but if you make her work, she's great, but still just SO expensive for 1 wound model.

    67) Dropsuit taryot
    eems fun, but It's kinda way too random and Fraactas are just so much more reliable for not much more poits.

    Aaaand I got through all the units, and that's without being even near to an in-depth analysis, and I wonder why there was no complete Guide to vanilla CA on the forum.

    Just to wrap up this ess of a train of tought, I'm realle excited for the N4 changes in general and CA specifically, the game seems to be in much better place thant at the end of N3, and even though my main gripe with CA of making units expensive just for the sake of it wasn't fixed, it is at least moved towards making units either cheaper or actually more effective at some things they do, the only thing we're missing now is the new ITS season of missions and if it will be possible to strip single group lists of orders then we'll probably see some 11-12 order CA lists with noctifer and Q-drone in group two, maybe with a gaki/preta/taigha or two.

    I just kinda melted my brain writing this, so I'll post some list samples and ideas tomorrow.
     
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  2. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I think it could be useful to amalgamate different user opinions into one thread. Really useful for concentrating information and giving ideas to new players.

    For example;

    Morat Vanguard Infantry
    General Roles:
    Cheerleader, 1 SWC LT, cheap hacker
    Changes since N3: Gained Heavy Pistol
    General Opinion: Very Poor
    Erbent: okay, can we just get a 1-2 point decrease on ALL our basic Line troops? Like, pretty please? or give them something more, in a world of AVA 4 daturazi and cheaper REMs AND veteran on Imetrons, I just can't see myself bringing these guys ever, and the models are soo good, sure, Heavy pistol and BTS3 are nice additions, but they still don't do it for me.

    WiT?: Our line troops are generally not great for what you pay, and the Morat is IMO the most vanilla and least useful of them. In vanilla Combined Army, its better to max out on cheap REM cheerleaders first. Then you will almost always prefer a Nox or a Unidron over this guy. But personally, with the changes to Impetuous I find it almost impossible to take this over a random Daturazi.

    Unidron Batroid
    General Roles:
    Cheerleader, Backup SWC weapon, cheap specialist
    Changes since N3: Remote rule changes, +3 Discover, +1" Dodge
    General Opinion: Below Average

    Erbent: And here I was going to booo on them, but they actually seem like a nice choice now with the +3 to discover and dodging on 10's with +1" just because reasons? Still not likely to take them, but at least they provide something unique in their point cost, and spitfire is a decent backup attacker.

    WiT?: If I'm taking a Line Trooper in vanilla, its usually this thing. Actually seems to bring something for its inflated price tag vs other line troops. Dogged is sometimes useful. Plasma Carbine is sometimes useful. Discover is sometimes useful. 1pt FO/Flash Pulse upgrade makes him a decent backline defender and reserve specialist. But even with all this, I'm taking all of the cheap remotes and Imetrons first and still looking for reasons not to take this guy. If my list is running two 14 point order generators, the first will be a Datz and the second probably this guy.

    If you don't do it, and one doesn't pop up shortly, I might just go ahead and make that. But you already took the best name lol
     
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  3. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member

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    Keer-Nau is a cheap option for white noise with Avatar, if your opponent brings MSV2 ARO you can use White Noise and shoot with the Avatar with a -6 mod.

    And of course, a way to defend hackers.
     
  4. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    After fielding both the other day - I prefer the Colonel to Bit/Kiss due to the ability to Coordinate him. Every time I wanted to do something with Bit, I wanted to use coords to shuffle other bots around while getting her to hack or shoot pitchers... and she can't.
     
  5. Aladino

    Aladino New Member

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    All the impetuous are now way stronger thanks to the change of the impetuous rule and Nourkias is a beast for is cost
     
  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    A quick addition regarding the Avatar : his DDO cannot be burned anymore. It's not a big improvement but it's a nice one

    Regarding Malignos : the price difference between a shouded KHD and a malignos KHD is only 6 points and for this price you get a better mimetism, hidden deployement, +1 WIP, +1 ARM, + 3BTS and dazers.
     
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  7. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

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    @WiT? Making a compilation of user opinions on the units is a great idea, how about getting all the input in this thread, and then compiling it in another thread as some sort of a cohesive guide on the army, maybe getting it pinned? I don't think I'll be able to hadle the compilation part though, but I can write some more toughts/analysis of units and provide some sample lists.
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I haven’t played any N4 yet, but here are my responses to a couple items in the first post.


    I’ve been using a Noctifer Spitfire in hidden deployment as a turn 2 troubleshooter since N2 and it has yet to disappoint me. Not the big ARO threat of the ML, but way more reliable spot-removal.

    I sometimes like the Nexus Spitfire in Vanilla. Nanoscreen lets you really leverage terrain in interesting ways and shoot from angles your opponent did not plan for. N4 makes it a little bit easier to claim cover, but flanking should still be viable.

    I find Kerr-Nau to compete with Bit. He’s still got a KHD and a pitcher, but slightly stronger shooting.
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    The fact that the spit is roughly the same points/SWC is also an advantage. Someone who is used to you taking the ML might spend orders dancing around that threat, when in reality you have a spit waiting for turn 2 to completely upend all that inefficient work they did.
     
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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    And it just so happens that it is getting a fantastic new sculpt very soon.
     
  11. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member

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    I'm an OCF player, sometimes Vanilla for Avatar giggles, and everytime i pick Bit i regreat that i didn't pick Kerr-Nau instead. Usually the plasma rifle, white noise program and coordinated orders (linkteam too if i'm playing OCF) would help me much more than adhesive launcher and deployable repeater.
     
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  12. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I see Bit as a cheap way to tick the Killer Hacker and Oblivion boxes. Particularly if you are vulnerable to infowar and haven't got a vanilla hacker already

    Also Bit just got an upgrade today with "additional option". I don't believe she was deployable repeater + minelayer before?
     
  13. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    She was, the changes today aren't working yet.*

    *minus the Shona and Mushashi ones
     
  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    She had it in N3, so it was probably a typo if it wasn't there in the beginning of N4.
     
  15. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Then I'm clearly blind, because I never noticed that. She's like the queen of hacking areas.

    Damn, putting out a repeater to spotlight a bearpode or similar rambo sounds sweet.

    Gonna info dump too, start to finish of ARMY first thirty profiles. Can compilate the info later on.

    3) Fraacta drop unit
    Solid, but kind of uninteresting. 2W is good but not amazing for a Dropper, I prefer more aggressive abilities. Can drop in front of a single enemy and tank the hit which is solid. Like other drop troops, I'd default to the Spitfire if wanting to get damage out of it.

    4) Umbra Legates
    Gains 1 CC, FD 8", NCO, CC damage.Lost burst two CC.

    A specialist with CC and Hacker+ capability for a high price. Honestly, have never gotten value out of it, but it looks much better in N4. The forward deployment is a big deal. NCO is a big deal if you are not investing in Strategos already. A low SWC LT option for vanilla, though I'd be sketchy about taking him without a Chain of Command Caliban.

    5) Maakrep Trackers
    Gained Regeneration rule change (automatic).

    Vanilla MSV2 dude that can take an HMG. Can heal itself on 60% at the end of the turn for free, which is better than not doing that. Not exciting, not particularly good, but does the job. I like it more than the other MSV2 option because of access to B4.

    6) Rodok
    Gained 4-4, lost Super Jump utility due to rules change.

    I like the mimetism HMG in theory but in practice, end up taking something else. The other profiles are link material for MAF.

    7) The Charontids
    Gained +2 CC. Gained LTL2 option on Sepsitor. Hacker+ gets +1 damage. Got around 9 points cheaper.

    I play the Avatar a lot, and find the Sepsitor to be the worst part about it, so not excited for a Sepsitor profile though any LTL2 is worth looking at especially as Mnemotech will transfer both orders to the new host. Otherwise, I can see utility in the MSV3 HMG, which will get better in a meta with less but stronger models due to being able to thoroughly punk anything short of a TAG that he can get a bead on. I want to like the LT Hacking Device plus, but it just lacks anything that I like in a combat specialist, ie mimetism or costing less than a TAG.

    8) Raicho
    Lost 2 CC and 1 WIP. Gained MULTI HMG + HRL profile. Big discounts and reduced SWC. Gained IMM Critical, ECM Hacker (-3). Gained an NCO profile. Pilot swaps heavy pistols for assault pistols and a combi.

    Last edition it was expensive and boring, now it is pretty solid. A TAG that is immune to Oblivion is worth paying attention to. Generally still pretty vanilla in that it lacks mimetism mods or out of the box abilities, but is very reliable and solid at doing the basic TAG job. The pilot also kicks serious ass with a combi and double assault pistols.

    9) Avatar
    Lost strategos 3, gained change in Strategos 2 (move a model's command group for free each turn). +1 command token. +1 LT order. Way cheaper.

    Yeah this guy is incredible. We lose Avatar/Speculo nofun alpha shenanigans, but gain buckets of free orders and actions via its LTL2, extra command token and transferring models for free, as well as an enormous discount.. I ran a two combat group Avatar list to 2nd place at Intelcom, an NZ Satellite event, and it felt very good.

    10) The Shrouded
    Points drop (including -6 on MULTI Sniper), Regeneration rule change, dazer downgrade, terrain skill upgrade

    One of the best infiltrators in the game IMO. Has Combi for good rangebands, BS12, and self heal. Access to hacker and killer hacker, minelayer and a Dazer if you swing that way. I still don't like the sniper even at -6 points. Good skirmishers are an autoinclude for me, its just about how many and which ones. Personally I like this one the best in CA.

    11) Malignos
    Small points drop. Regeneration rule change, dazer downgrade, terrain skill upgrade

    The Killer Hacker is worth looking at, due to being just 31 points and having both mines and dazers, but it trades Combi for SMG to get that. I generally don't love this, as TO infiltrators are generally very expensive. This one gains self heal for the points though. The basic forward observer is +12 over the Shrouded, roughly 50% more expensive. If you really want TO to do something then you gotta take him, but otherwise, Shrouded seem a far better deal.

    12) Speculo Killers
    Small points drop. Dodge ZoC ARO. Game-wide CC stat buff and MA2 buff reduces her advantage over many units.

    So damn unreliable, most of the value comes from the fear that one might appear and how that warps deployment. If a list does not have a strong aggressive piece, I take one to cover missions where I am forced to go first and going first is bad. Definitely prefer the Boarding Shotgun, due to its ability to defend her better in ARO. CC is mostly a trap, a real coin toss. Would suggest hunting cheerleaders instead, but if there is a TAG or something it can be worth it to flip that coin. Due to ZoC dodges it can be hard to retain control over the combat as she moves around the DZ, so beware sudden cheerleaders dodging into ARO positions around her.

    13) Daturazi
    Impetuous changes. Game-wide CC stat buff and MA2 buff reduces advantage over many units. Got CC buff, damage buff, and Berserk. Gained +1B Chain Rifle, Heavy Pistol

    Essentially, because of this guy, I'll never take a line trooper again in vanilla unless I want a cheap forward observer or something. He's the same price as a Vanguard, Nox or Unidron, and while he can't really shoot, he does so much other stuff and shooting is not what you take cheerleaders for. Heavy Pistol is nice on this guy, lets him beat on other warbands past their smoke range or be a dangerous extra ARO on a rambo. Most lists I run have one and could consider a second.

    14) Gaki
    Knives disappeared. +1 CC. Berserk.

    Berserk reinvigorates this unit, but its so much better to pay 1 point for a Taiga. Dislike how much these profiles overlap and how one is essentially a worse version of the other. I guess it can berserk then explode, but a Taiga can just berserk with DA. Don't like it at all

    15) Preta
    +1 CC

    Dogged is pretty good, but generally I prefer a Taiga, especially when they are cheaper. Struggles to force damage without berserk, and generally hyperdynamics seems to be better than Dogged from my experience with the profiles. Bring back preta mines and we'll talk about the unit again.

    16) Med-tech obsidon medchanoids
    Gained +1 CC, Gizmokit. Lost SMG profile. Lost Journalist. Remote buff makes fixing a Q Drone a way better proposition.

    Good if you want to repair shit, which I usually don't. Generally, if I am taking models with wounds, they have regeneration (Shrouded), are out of position for healing (Caliban), have dogged (Noctifier), or are low value and not worth fixing (Datz, Taiga). If I am taking models with STR they often have Mnemotech and kill themseves when they go unconcious. Only reason I'll ever take one really is if I am running a Q Drone, and because those now fall prone on KO, thats looking really tempting. So generally I don't like it but a big part of that is that fixing stuff isn't my style, not because he is bad.

    17) M-drone
    Remote changes, small discount

    Still the same old M-Drone as before. If you want sensor its good. If you want 6-4 specialist its cheap for that role. I haven't taken one for a long time, but they certainly have game.

    18) Le muet
    Solid discount, +3 CC, MSV1 buff

    Expensive ARO piece mercenary, good for factions without a Noctifier. He's not actually that bad but we can simply do better. Could be a 39 point, 2W -6 MSV1 sniper if we need it?

    19) Q-drone
    Remote buffs, +5 CC, -1 point.

    Same as before, but falls down when KO'd, making fixing it way more plausible. Not common for it to fully die in one attack except against very powerful weapons.

    20) T-drone
    Remote buffs, +5 CC, buffs to spotlight and guided, Smart Missile Launcher changes to Missile Launcher

    Some people argue that guided is the next meta. Spotlight ARO is pretty good and we have good access to pitchers. I don't personally play it - even if it is good its an uninteresting playstyle.

    21) R-drone
    Remote buffs, +5 CC, -1 point

    Flash Pulse remotes are cheap orders and a cheap line of defense due to flash pulse and mimetism ARO. Set them up with horizontal lines of fire across your DZ to deter models that cross the board and watch the number of alpha strikes drop significantly. All flash pulse remotes went down by 1 point for some reason, so its even more of an autoinclude than before. The first six cheerleaders you ever take should be two of these, two ikadron, two imetron.

    22) Seed-soldiers
    DEP swapped for Panzerfaust, +2 CC

    A line trooper that forward deploys and hides under a marker for a while. Not to be confused with a skirmisher. I used to run it as a very cheap specialist in my Avatar lists, but now as Shroudeds are cheaper I see less utility for them. They do kind of act as a mine and the Panzer is nice utility, so they are not totally useless, but I don't see myself running many of them any time soon when I can get the full skirmisher package for 6 points more.

    23) Cadmus
    Lost ridiculous combat jump shenanigans, mixed discounts (-4 on combi/assault pistol), +2 CC, loses one decoy, Assisted Jump change

    At the end of N3, this thing was ridiculous due to almost always landing. Now its a solid cheap Aerial Deployment option with a catch - no Parachutist. In exchange, you get a very cheap B4 option and sometimes jank combos with Morpho-scan. Honestly, I dislike Combat Jump a lot. Any skill that just says "60% its good, 40% is shite" on a simple dice roll can gtfo of my lists no matter how good it is. More expensive to get assisted jump now due to needing an EVO, and I don't lilke "75% good, 25% shite" either.

    24) Haiduks
    +1 CC

    Was crap before, is crap now. A cheap visor with a gun that isn't very good. I just see no value in this profile whatsoever. On defense its extremely weak. On offense, three dice on BS12 with 24" range is not great. If it got limited camo I would look again.

    25) Noctifer ML
    +1 CC, -3 to hacker

    Virtually unchanged since second edition, long live the king of ARO! If we had AVA 2 I would look at the Spitfire or possibly the hacker, but that is a question for SEF and OCF players to ask themselves. Not an autoinclude, but so good that I am always either taking it or taking only four dudes in G2 to fake out either one of these or an aerial deployment trooper.

    26) Kurgats
    +1 CC, +1 BS, Mines became Armor Pierce, moderate cost increase, Gizmokit, +3 BTS, heavy Pistol

    I guess its a better combat specialist with BS12, but getting more expensive was not a good direction for this guy. I rarely took one before, even in my Avatar lists, and I don't see him ever reaching my table as is.

    27) Yaogat
    Cheaper, -1 CC, +3 BTS, Heavy Pistol, gained a +1 DAM MULTI Sniper and a +1 B MULTI Sniper

    I hated them before, and I still don't like them now. *But* there is a bonus burst MULTI Sniper to contend with. I think this is still bad. However, if you can engage at extreme range, it could be better than an HMG. Additionally it can engage a TAG through smoke better than an HMG due to armor piercing rounds. Its worth looking at in this new meta which is definitely featuring plenty of TAGs, but I don't expect him to be good. Note that the bonus burst is only on the active turn.


    28) Rasyat
    Gained 4-4, MA2, Parachutist (Deployment Zone), modest price hike

    Big change to this guy, parachustist (deployment zone) is possibly the best skill an AD trooper can have. Eclipse smoke and melee are a thing, but I feel you need to simply take the spitfire and purge with it to get his value. I almost never took one before, now he's a serious contender and my favourite of the AD troops.


    28) Skiavoros
    4-4, +1 CC, Oblivion +1B on hacker, +1 Command Token LTs, low to moderate points drops on profiles, Heavy Pistols, Shock CC Weapons, gained Spitfire LT

    Got better, but I still don't like them. I wish there was a Hacker+ LT, but we at least got a spitfire LT. I think if you are taking him, its for the spitfire LT, where he becomes a decent attack piece with built in chain of command. Still don't love it, but its worth looking at compared to before.

    29) Sogorat
    Lost full auto profile but gained +1B on Feuerbach, -1 PH, +3 BTS, lost Bioimmunity, gained NWI, gained +1 DAM on CC and BS attacks, gained Heavy Pistol, lost Assault pistol, gained NCO profiles, gained Pulzars, small points increase

    Thats a lot of changes. He's essentially three wounds, harder to hack, and has a Pulzar now. He lost the automedikit but I always felt that was pretty bad. When compared to the full auto feuerbach, he is much cheaper but loses the mimetism effect. A cheap SWC LT in that you pay SWC but get a gun, which is a real selling point, though I would recommend the Chain of Command Caliban in this case. I don't know what to think - I used to think he was pretty crap, but he might be pretty bloody solid now.

    30) Anathematics
    +2 CC, big discount (up to -12), Trinity +1B on Hacker+

    Woah, this guy got good. He can be a deadly attack piece or a strong combat specialist LT. You have to watch out for Oblivion when putting a Mnemotech guy in the midfield, but with marker state, BTS 6 and a strong active turn trinity he can likely handle himself. Definitely rate this profile in either capacity. Pity there isn't a Spitfire LT, he would be a real go-to profile for me.
     
    bladerunner_35 and Dragonstriker like this.
  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    For him I'm quite interested in his specialist operative profile. An E/M BS weapon (even with B1) that can drop in your ennemy back is a nice threat against TAG and others big units (allowing you to D-Charge them in peace)

    I just hope loosing his DA Weapon is a bug and not a design choice


    Regarding Sogarat, I think it suffer from the comparison with the overdron HMC. Both are at the same price range but Overdon is more resilient against hacking, got albedo, got better chance of winning face to face/do more damage (4 dice AP vs 5 dice AP when compared to the AP HMG sogarat, 3 dice AP/DA vs 5 dice AP when compared to the Feuerbach sogarat) and 2 unconscious level and only loose the ability to go prone (and NCO).

    I'm not sure I can think of a situation where I would take the sogarat instead of the overdron.
     
    #16 Arkhos94, Oct 8, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The Sogarat is amazing in MAF, but struggles next to the Overdron and Charontid in Vanilla CA.
     
  18. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Thats fair. I have emitter'd a TAG before with a Cube Jager or something, but feel its more of a "cheap throwaway guy in 20 order list" option. The specialist is kind of wasted with Parachutist (Dep Zone) and I prefer the Taryot for that role. That said, while you do pay *way* more, you get some alpha strike ability (I find AD with combi never perform for me though) plus melee and importantly smoke to help with damage or achieving objectives.

    The DA I'm sure is a bug, given he has *no* CCW at all on that profile now and thats kind of not how the game works. He might downgrade or something but he'll have a heavy pistol if nothing else.

    I don't own any -drons, so have never considered them. Personally I don't like the Charontid, and it definitely fills a different role to the Sogarat in that it can't really break TAGs like a Sogarat but punks other stuff. Not convinced that he 'struggles' in comparsion in this case, lots of overlapping roles but important differences.

    Vs the Overdron, he is notably cheaper and (edit: same BS, not +1 BS), and resistant to hacking due to unit type at Veteran. But easier *to* hack and lacking Tac Awareness, and a little less tough with a fake third wound and better engineer access than doctors (yay Caliban). He's also a little more flexible due to CC (for what its worth) and the Pulzar. But I can buy this argument - Hyperdron does seem a better choice for what I would probably take a Sogarat for.
     
    #18 WiT?, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
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  19. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I checked on army and they both have BS 13 and the price difference is between 7 and 1 points which is not a big difference (at least not enough to overcome the tactical awareness advantage).

    But I agree with the pulzar argument. DTW is always a nice thing to have on costly trooper
     
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  20. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I am really blind. Thought he was BS 14 now lol. Yeah he just seems pretty bad in comparison, not when you get a better gun *and* an extra order. Yikes. I guess maybe you offset that with NCO or having him as a LT himself maybe.
     
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