Now that all YJ plebs that flooded Nomad subforum seem to calm down and bury their salty guns after the godly camo repeater maasai profiles were revised, I'd like to get some clarification on how repeaters in marker state are intended to work. Let's say there's Bit & Kiss. Bit has KHD with Cybermask and Kiss has built-in repeater. According to peripheral rules if Bit goes Cybermask so does Kiss: According to IMP rules it does not affect Automated Equipment (i.e. Repeater): And IMP-2 state cancellation does not say anything about using automatic equipment: So now we have an IMP-2 repeater that can be hacked through without losing marker state. If we use a hacker other than Bit (so Kiss does not lose IMP state since he does not declare an attack) we can hack enemy trooper (even a hacker) with the only ARO available to him will be Reset since 'technically' repeater is hidden in marker (trooper loadout is hidden) and cannot be targeted. Did I get it right? Is it intended to be this way?
Aside from the rule question, do you really needed to emphasize 'pleb' to others? Some people were invading the forums, I saw it, but that's really unnecessary and overly aggressive attitude toward everyone.
I think you're blowing this out of proportions just like you're blowing the number of Yu Jing players spamming in Zewrath' thread way out of proportion. Bit needs to activate this with an Entire Order skill which completely removes the surprise factor. Kiss also needs to move into position from the deployment zone, which means the places to hide are fewer and the opportunities to do something about it are also higher. Compare this to a FastPanda in terms of disruptive hacking and you'll be pleasantly surprised as a Nomad player that FastPandas have higher potential. Please note that the Repeater can not be turned off. Enemy Hackers can still hack through Kiss' Repeater, even if Kiss is in Marker State, both because they know there is a Repeater there to begin with and because you can Hack-by-chance just like any ZoC-related ARO. The presence of this Repeater is also going to remain open information because of how Open Information works in N4.
Why does everyone cling to the fact that it needs extra order to become a repeater in marker state instead of addressing unclear mechanic? It becomes a marker and according to Open and Private Information it says that contents of the marker is private information. I cannot find any other mentions about private and open information aside from given on page 15. Is it mentioned anywhere else that Recamo/IMP loadout stays open information?
Ok... sure. But are you expecting cybermask to have this sort of effect to? Your opponent already knows the repeater is there.
It is never mentioned anywhere that this information becomes private information again, either. But, as I elaborated, it doesn't matter because the opponent can still hack you through that Repeater as it is always on and they can simply declare a Hack from anywhere.
Here I recamo 6 troops in my turn. Do I have to tell you who has what? What was the big deal with maasai then if you can hack-by-chance marker anyway?
Because the Masai could infiltrate to a spot where you can't reasonably Discover it and in a state where you can't Speculatively shoot it. FastPanda and the new version of Masai only has one of those problems, Bit+Kiss with Impersonation has the other. What's interesting is that they altered Lu Duan heavily in spite of mostly not having these problems. I think the why and how of it is mostly case closed as far as this subforum is concerned, this is a matter of discussing opinions and possibly bug-reporting if it is unintended.
Depends how you interpret the sentence "Your Private Information remains secret until a specific game event forces you to disclose it." I would say it is commonly assumed once information becomes public it stays that way, as it is functionally impossible to neuralyzer your opponent and there is nowhere that explicitly states going into marker state makes information private after it's public. How your group interprets that though is up to you. You can probably open up the thread and check for yourself but it probably had something to do with the fact the opponent had no idea where the repeaters were. Something CB didn't want to fuck with so badly they took it off the Moran, and then also removed a similar instance from the Lu Duan.
if the EC player starts, it has a few chances to get to possition and cybermask. The problem with moran was never not knowing it was a moran or not, but the difficult of retaliation, or so was told in the moran thread, and that is the main reason why it was taken out. If not... the new profile of camoed moran should be still a problem, and I think we all will agree that now is not. not having the possibility to interact directly with the repeater, because it is hidden below a marker state (so even if you knew it was a repeater, once in the marker state, it is hidden again and cannot be used by the enemy), and also imposibilites the direct interaction against the hackers until they act themselves. That interaction is still on, is what whas the problem with morans, and is the problem with bit&kiss, which can hide again and again, while moran could not (once revealed, the interaction was finished) not knowing where the repeater was, is the same problem as a TO hacker (well, not so, the marker gives a hint about it, and a bit of knowledge on nomads will help to know how many morans are there, and best players will know which ones are). Nobody will know where he is until is too late, but nobody is going to make a fuss about it, because once revealed, they can interact normally with it, not as with the hidden camo. I cannot help but think again that the problem was not the interaction, but that it was in nomads, because now that only EC has it, the people start to deffend it changing arguments.
Well, I guess in this situation IF repeater stays open information, adds to a hacking zone AND stays valid target for hacking through then it should work as normal. Can hacking through a repeater be considered an attack against repeater owner? (since you declare 'attack' and cannot attack IMP)
Come think of it, this is not strange at all. The fake echos won't have a Repeater which would allow a YJ/Ikari/Dahshat player to potentially bait Hacking in a way that was never intended, so it makes perfect sense that the Lu Duan wouldn't have it owing to the Holoecho - not the Holomask.
Heeeeey @HellLois the hidden repeaters issue still has a place in N4: Bit and Kiss, with Kiss under Cybermask. We will have the same problem with Scylla, eventually. It would be great to see this instance of the problem should get fixed like the Morans and Lu Duan did (good work doing that btw, thank you for not letting that problem sit around).
yep, we already know that our friend Bit and Scylla produces that issue. We are studing how to edit his profile like the morans and Lu Duan ;)
it was a option, but the problem will continue there, because you only fix the Impersonator issue, but Camouflage doesnt have it, now the NFB is on mimetism. And what happend if you want to use White Noise through a repeater when both have NFB? So I think the better option is to change profiles
Thank you for the clarification. May I ask why did you decide not to simply update the rules to clarify some interactions like this? Not that I dislike the profile changing path, it works fine, but it seems like limiting further design options instead of adding/changing a few lines in the rules that are anyway (luckily) a living document now may not be optimal? Especially given the fact that the rules will have to be updated anyway - a few typos here and there and some not-entirely-clear things about hacking area and repeaters, BS attack declaration, etc. Cheers!
just curious, if you can answer this. Why not just add a clause for reveal any marker state for a repeater when it is used?
