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Ramah strategy discussion: mid board pressure

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by jackfrost, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    so I love ramah as a sectorial and I think its nicely balanced in fact. I think that its main strength is in high quality hitters that do their jobs very well, as well as top notch specialists that fight and do their jobs with quality.

    that being said, I think the built in weakness of the faction is mid board pressure especially in a defensive sense. where other sectorials will have forward deploy models in the 15-25pt range that can hinder any early game mid board pressure, ramah has expensive mid board pieces that are very strong on offense and have great stats and abilities but none of them are cheap and none of them are "throw away".

    that means its always worth the work to kill them and fighting them is never really a waste of orders that you are imposing on the enemy.

    so I'm curious how other people who have had success in n4 or n3 have dealt with that. or even if you think its not the inherent weakness and you feel strong there, then teach me your ways.

    thanks!
     
  2. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    I played about 15 games of Ramah at the end of N3. The lack of good defense and midfield presence is a real problem, and personally something that I dislike about RTF.

    Firstly, you must take the first turn. This can determine games with Ramah. Obviously this comes down to luck, but try to go first.

    Secondly, 3 Flash pulse bots / Rafiq. The flash pulse is the best ARO in the game (in a way), and it just got even more potent in N4. These guys need to slow your opponent down.

    TR Bot. Use it.

    As for shooting.. I think RTF has one good shooter, and its the Mukhtar. I have really tried to make Khawarij work, and I can't. The MSV2 guy in a core link with smoke has potential, but a second Red Fury Mukhtar is better.

    I think in N4 , a Tuareg Hacker is going to be fairly powerful depending on the mission. I'll be bringing him and revealing at opportune moments.

    Nahab are good, and can deploy on the table (when going first).


    all in all, I don't really like Ramah's play style. I miss my mid field mines, cheap hunzakut, and so on. Good luck with them. I really had bad luck an a lot of difficulty playing Ramah. Still, I am only 1 person and I had about 15 games as I said which may not be enough to really figure out this sectorial.
     
  3. vorthain

    vorthain Veteran Novice

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    Nahab starting in suppression in midfield seems great. And Tuaregs can give midfield mines, which is good. And how is flash pulse better?
     
  4. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    I forgot to mention, I really like Naffatun in RTF. In a link team, they are disposable corner guards with B2 Flame throwers. This is a really effective and annoying way to slow down your opponent (in your DZ, grant you).
     
  5. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    Nahab in suppression... I dunno, that is an expensive piece to throw away to being shot out of suppresion range with HMG. Could work if you deploy very well. bit expensive for my taste.

    Tuareg, yes... but you really dont want to reveal him on turn 1 to plant a mine. You need him for bigger fish, or a late game objective grab.

    Flash ammo now requires 2 saving rolls.
     
  6. vorthain

    vorthain Veteran Novice

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    I didn't know that about flash pulse, that is cool. And there is a Tuareg minelayer if you don't need him to be a specialist (or want a second Tuareg).

    Is your Nahab preference the AD version?
     
    #6 vorthain, Oct 4, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2020
  7. jackfrost

    jackfrost Active Member

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    I know you're saying you didn't play enough with them to be sure but I did and we are on the same page regarding this weakness! at the same time you've given me some thoughts I just hadn't thought to go for up until this time. a lot of the time asking for help is just asking for new eyes and I really like what you've focused on here. taureg hacker, TR bot, and then what I was always doing was filling in the holes with those cheaper bots but what I really ought to be doing is having them in the list first as the main system of defence. 3 mimetism flash pulse bots watching lanes isn't weak by any stretch. thanks for the reply.

    I FORGOT YOU COULD DO THAT! again new eyes on a problem leads to better answers. this is a big deal for the few mid board guys we have :D
     
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  8. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    That’s the reason why in almost all my RTF lists there’s always Carmen & Batard. They do dirty jobs I usually reserve for the usual “disposable” stuff in normal Haqq.

    Clearing out mines, taking risky trades with midfield enemy stuff, generally just clearing out stuff before you send the expensive mukhtar Haris in. Things like that. Sensor on Batard is great too, but more often than not that’s used as a threat rather than actually using the skill itself.
     
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  9. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    The problem with the Tuareg minelayer is the mine itself - it can only really ever be a mine to someone familiar with the sectorial (I don't think you have the option to deploy the Tuareg as a regular camo marker anymore). Worse, not only does your opponent know it's a mine, but they also know you have a Tuareg deployed within 8" of it - it's sensor bait.

    IMO that profile is a total trap.
     
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  10. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, knowing what's behind a camo marker just leads to expend more orders, and thats what we want right? more orders being used not shooting our guys!

    And sensor is not so common, at least in my meta, so that's not a really big issue for me, i loved the minelayer Tuareg
     
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  11. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Yeah, I played Ramah since it came out, many tournaments, many friendly games and that army has some disadvantages - and lack of cheap infiltrators (and cheap expendable units) is definitely one of their problems. Especially when we compare it to the situation in Vanilla Haqq, with all those Hunzakuts, Farzans, Hawwas, or Daylamis, Bazouks et cetera.
    But that is one of the things that makes RTF different and it's a problem that can be fixed.
    I also used Carmen with her Doggo for some path clearing, like @Sojourne. They were in all of my armylists and I was really happy with their performances usually. I also used Nahabs to enter the field from sides and take out enemies from behind, or I just used the mobility of other units - like Tarik/Mukhtar/Khawarijs. In N3 it was better with Khawas and Tarik, since now Superjump got bit nerfed and their mobility is decreased.
    I'm also a bit unhappy that some Khawas got even more expensive, like HRL. I really wanted them to have Natural Born Warrior to make them harder to take out in CC, and I appreciate the Bioimmunity, but still they pay a lot for what they can do.

    I almost always played RTF with Khawa fireteams with support of Shihab, and few times with Hortlaks/Jans (great for aggressive AROs).
    Now in N4 I'd think about defensive fireteam of Zhayedans, since they got a bit cheaper and a lot better.

    And to be honest I never used Tuareg in RTF. They are great, I really like them in Vanilla Haqq, but in RTF there are so many expensive units that I usually preferred taking something else.
    About the new Minelayer profile - I'm really happy it came out, but definitely more happy for Vanilla ;) Now I can put Tuareg in reserve, then deploy the normal camo and let enemy think that this is the real soldier in reserve. Funny vision ;)


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  12. Koval

    Koval Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right. Ramah has very little midfield presence, and its defensive pieces are generally average at best. These combine into a sectorial that, I would agree, generally likes to go first and do damage.

    For defense, the remotes suggested by HotFreshTofu are a good start. I would argue that Fanous took a bit of a hit between the 15 model limit and absence of overclock, but Shihab are still AVA 2. I'm also going to suggest the Ghulam sniper as a defensive piece. In a core team, it provides surprisingly good AROs, and L s cheap enough to be expendable. I often take 6 potential members in a core with the expectation that my sniper will die on my opponent's first turn.

    Another defensive piece I want to suggest is the Mukhtar. I havent used them yet in N4, but I used them in most of my games of N3. I would sometimes take a haris of red fury/doctor/viral rifle, but more commonly I just took the red fury and doctor as a duo. I found that the main difference between the two setups was defense. The haris bonus doesn't make a big difference for the red fury, but absolutely does in ARO. I would position the viral rifle in front covering short lanes to protect my team, so they had to get through it to get to the ones I actually cared about. It's not expendable, but with everything it has going for it, it can sometimes be a huge pain to dig out, and not worth it if the opponent cant get to the other two. In N4, with the removal of a specific haris profile, I would really look at the forward observer instead. The flash pulse and shotgun give you better range bands for cheaper, but the viral rifle *scares* people, so it may not be worth it.

    I would also second (third?) taking Carmen. She's a great toolbox and I dont know why they felt the need to make her both cheaper and better. But shes also not a defensive piece. What Carmen does is level the playing field my denying your opponent an effective midfield camo game. Between her speed, being impetuous, Batard, a burst 2 chain rifle, and scary CC, Carmen might be the most order-efficient way to clear camo tokens out of the middle of the board in the game. All while providing smoke for all your 8-24 guns and just threatening to go on a classic bike attack run. All for 17 points.
     
  13. Grotnib

    Grotnib Well-Known Member

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    I may be in the minority here, but I feel that Ramah has a rather good midfield presence (especially in scenarios that allow the full use of infiltration)! Nahabs are stellar skirmishers that are hard to remove and pose a credible threat to most targets. If you can park (or deploy) one in an important position where they require some effort to get to, they pose a real problem for your opponent. All of them threat direct template weapons, 4'' dodges with savege melee potential and decent BS attacks, while being difficult to remove due to NWI, Immunity (Shock) and Immunity (Critical)! If your opponent leaves them be, woe on them! And more can be brought off table. They aren't that much more expensive than other factions' skirmishers at the end of the day...

    I also love Tuareg Hackers - especially with the N4 hacking rules. They can hide until the opportune time to avoid any killer hackers and to ambush the enemy or complete objectives, and camo state offers some protection on the reactive turn. I feel that they work well in tandem with the Nahabs too! Move to a place where the enemy barely can't see and threaten a mine - so you dodge eh? WIP 15 unopposed Spotlight for you my friend! You reset? Nice, have a mine then!

    Last but not least, I feel that the humble 13p/0SWC Ghulam Panzerfaust (Number 2!) does wonders for our reactive turn! They can set up competent Fireteam AROs that burn orders from the enemy, and if the attacking model happens to lose the face2face - well it's ouch time... On the active turn they can break the Fireteam and spend Coordinated Orders to fling panzerfausts at strong ARO pieces - that's how I killed a Core linked Haidao Sniper in my last game! They can also charge the enemy with B3 direct template weapons if the opportunity presents itself; the link doesn't even break when the sacrificial point man meets he's fate as long as there is atleast one Number 2 left in the team! Rinse and repeat...
     
    #13 Grotnib, Oct 5, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  14. LoganGarnett

    LoganGarnett Well-Known Member

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    Seeing Hakims get buffed feels me with determination. Fixing up Nahabs and Khawarijs with Burst 2 Medikit whenever you need it saves plenty of orders, you can even take a Hakim without a bot to save up points (though bots are still great in tying up enemy troops in CC). Khawarijs are great atm. Yes, a bit pricey, but they get their job done with ARM 3, built in BS (+1 Dam) and improved CC. Hell, killed Sheskin with one of them in CC a couple of days ago. And NCO on MSV2 profile is simply amazing!
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Good news, they did get NBW. :-)

    DDEEC4D2-E0DC-4316-9758-DFB4E9DF65CA.jpeg
     
  16. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    RTF RIP. But, if I were to make a RTF list I would try to abuse Flashpulses. There are enough decent profiles with FO or F.Pulses to gum up the ARO turn while allowing RTF to dakka dakka on the play.
     
  17. vorthain

    vorthain Veteran Novice

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    I can't speak for @KedzioR_vo but I also wanted them to have NBW for a long long time, but it seems like they were given more skills to justify their cost rather than make them less expensive. I wonder how often folks get them into melee...maybe not so much if they are toting around Ghulams?
     
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  18. HardDisk

    HardDisk Well-Known Member

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    The only problem these days is that units with TI don't give a F for non-lethal ammo, going vs Ariadna with just flash pulses will get you killed =/
     
  19. Fenrir

    Fenrir Well-Known Member

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    There were so many problems N3 with RTF. First of all we could only trust our list to crit tariq or kawarij spitfrie, this was the Core the haris always te muktars. 1 trick pony.

    My point of view now a days it's worse, because they didn't change "nothing" at all. These days I have been looking the other armys and it seems that you only can play Hassassin because it's the only one that take several changes (but not enought, the 15 order games are killing haqqislam and hassassin so hard).

    In the other hand in RTF, let's see what good thinks we got

    - Haris of jenizaros, zeyedan "rework" but still expensive, a better nahab thats fine

    Let's see the bad thinks

    - kawarij, hakim, jenizaro, maggy got expensive, al fasid (stayed the same?), ("don't understand" the new tag in RTF why dont we get hassassin in RTF, but we get the tag? that doesn't matter go on, but it blinds maggy)

    - Fireteams stayed the same just little changes maggy + zeyedan ok? and al fasid + rafiq? that's improve. We get so many wildcards, but you guys need to think about them all wildcards are characters so the fireteams are going to look always the same, all the firteams less ghulams. zeyedans, muktar, jenizaros gonna be yara + leila + rouhani + 2 units. this is so boring. Did you guys see the new corregidor all is wildcard (just an example) but more or less all armys seems to get very good fireteams hassassin included, But RTF don't get nothing and they were in a bad position.

    - Tuareg got a miner profile so now you can tell them that you got a hidden deployment tuareg not really usefull. If the other player know that we dont have any Camo marker you are telling him that we got a tuareg, I'm thinkin the is only good on vanilla.

    In conclusion I think RTF its so expensive to play all units cost so many points, the feeling is that you are paying that amount of points for zero defense zero midfield control, and now we dont got FATlvl2. If the other player knows ramah and knows how to play he will expect nahabs or tuareg, so what can we do now?
     
  20. vorthain

    vorthain Veteran Novice

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    I think some of these are valid criticisms, some not so much. Maghariba base model went up by 3 but down in SWC and got Baggage, 360V, and Religious at base, then a cut of 14pts for the mine dispenser version and a HRL option. Janissaires went down or mostly stayed the same, and they got +3 CC, +1 BS, and +3 BTS, with the latter two in particular being very valuable. Except for Khawarij (who continues to pay a lot of points to be a 1W guy that is pretty good at everything but great at nothing), I think the costs generally went down. Fasid HMG probably could have gone down a bit, but 0.5 SWC isn't nothing.

    CJC as an example of wildcards is an extreme one, I think. Khawarijs or Zheydans could have been wildcards without breaking the game IMO; mixing Khawarij with Mukhtars for a fast striking team, or having a Zhayedan in the Ghulam link for extra punch on defense, sounds really cool. Alas. And yes, Tuareg minelayer advertises a hidden Tuareg, but so what? Your opponent has to avoid that area, or leave some unit on special duty looking out for the Tuareg. Either way, they have to change their plans. Would a camo guy have been nice? Sure, but its not a killer. And I think Fatality 2 was more trouble than it was worth given the mechanic was alien to everything else in the game.

    I think the number of higher point model is relevant in combination with link options. Even with a tactical window of 15, you need elbow room to fit want you need versus what you want. I did a little bit of math here and found that the RTF average unit cost is 27 points. Hassassins' average was 23 points, and another arbitrarily picked new sectorial, White Banner, was 27 also.
     
    #20 vorthain, Oct 5, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
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