Since fireteam rules are in a separate pdf instead of the core book, there’s a bit of an implication that they’re going to be subject to additional changes next book, next ITS season, or whenever. Right now, fireteams are a very dominant part of the game, because although they come with some downsides, they offer very concrete bonuses without directly costing additional points. Which is to say, in almost all cases, using fireteam rules will give you an advantage over an otherwise identical list which is not. As a thought experiment, I’m wondering how far back you could cut the bonuses and have fireteams still be worth using. Would you still use Haris and Core teams if they were like a Duo, and gave you no advantage other than order efficiency for moving multiple models up the table?
No, I wouldn’t. Personally I think that the restrictions on AROs, having to clump up, and having a bunch of Troopers get activated without being able to defend other than Dodge/Reset would outweigh the increase in manoeuvrability.
I particularly like defensive cores, which would have no benefit at all without bonuses, so that one's a no. The new HB toolbox fireteam is perhaps the high water mark for a group of models that you want to move all of them up, because they all do different things. There's a lot to be said for having an MSV2 24" weapon, smoke, pitchers, an [assault] hacker, a killer hacker, all able to do their things efficiently. But even then... a lot of the benefit comes from having link bonuses on the smoke launcher, the pitchers, and the shooter. Without those, you lose order efficiency because you have to spend more orders launching the smoke and pitchers, and re-launching failed shots. I think... I might give it a try just to see, but probably I would find it not to be worth it.
I agree that those would all be big downsides. I do sometimes find duos useful, and might stretch that to include a bonus-less haris as well, but probably would not be motivated to go to full sized cores. Of course, with no bonuses to lose, I would be a lot more willing to split my AROs if the situation called for it.
I think maybe the problem is that I don't actually want to move a lot of models into the midfield. Maybe if I was playing IA or MO, I would use the link to move all my HI up and then put them into suppression, @daboarder style. But the armies I play don't want a bunch of random guys moved up. They want to keep the DZ secure, and move a select few guys up as needed. A duo with a shooter and a specialist makes sense, because they both have a reason to go to the midfield at the same time. If I could have a third guy in there for smoke, that would work too. So, I guess if I was a Tohaa player I would totally use triads without the burst bonus. Shooter, specialist, and Makaul.
Duo only gets movement, and I see it as situationally worth-it. If Haris only gave the movement benefits I would possibly use it, but it would be less common in my lists. Core would be completely worthless without the buffs it gains. Without the laundry list of buffs I just have a hard to manoeuvre blob of effluence.
Definitely no to using Core if it only gave movement efficiency. Even with fireteam bonuses I'm really hesitant to move a full core too far up (even with something like a full HI team) because it's just so vulnerable. Probably yes to Haris, a three man team still feels manageable.
I would still use fire teams, but in a very different manner. They would still be a very order efficient way to get a bunch of troops into strong positions in the first turn or to rapidly reposition later. I would see them as a way to run multiple coordinated orders for fewer command tokens.
I barely use Fireteams now; I find them so cumbersome and time-consuming to move and position that I will usually accept a slight reduction in list viability just for the sake of not using them. I might use a Duo or Haris for efficiency alone, but never a Core unless I'm playing Biotechvore.
Duo or Triad: Absolutely. The Triad "mix-and-match" approach means that fundamentally Triads don't change without the burst bonus -- the "ITS Triad" (Shooting Piece, Specialist, Makaul) approach of vanilla Tohaa still works regardless of whether or not you get the extra burst. Spiral Corps on the other hand loses Tricore and that army looks way different without it. I'm not actually sure how you effectively fill out a normal Draal triad without Tricore. (Seriously, take a look at what units have Triad in Spiral Corps and tell me what you take with a Draal and a Kriigel. I guess a Kosuil looks like the best choice?) Core: No. Cores are already often very hard to justify moving around because of the inherent weakness of exposing five times as many guys as normal, and without the defensive benefits there is very little reason to justify one. The only use case I can see is to maybe to have the core as a second 3-man team?
I think it depends on the missions and the specific sectorial. Without other bonuses, order efficiency for movement is what you're taking them for. Definitely nice in modes where you need to move specialists forward, or just for quadrant control. I also think sectorials that lack long range performance and want to close the gap, like Steel Phalanx, would still benefit from being able to move together into the midfield.
I think this is likely to be army dependent, some use fireteams for utility which is still fine, whilst the raw power fireateams dont look as hot. I would absolutely have played triads in Tohaa even without the burst bonus, being able to move a specialist a close combat/smoke thrower and a gunfighter at once is pretty valuable. For factions that are just using it as a way to supercharge one gunfighter obviously its much less attractive.
impetuous fireteams that get discount but not the downsides? maybe I would use them in duos/haris... but what I would not use then are sectorials mostly. Versatility is very important then, specially when there are sectorials that need those FT bonus
I think I could live without core bonuses, but I probably wouldn't bother with anything more than duos if there were no bonuses at all. I'd make a few exception for haris if the tools the 3rd guy brings are worth it (like a wu-ming HMG/wu-ming tinbot/Zhanying hacker haris). Overall, I think the game would be better off without the +3 BS bonus for a 5-man core, because the one and only reason why I want a core is to counter the opposing core. Limit fireteams to 3 dudes (eventually make an exception for basic goons), give sixth sense to haris and call it a day. Then again, with all the wildcards we're seeing these days it's very unlikely the game will ever move in that direction. Oh well, let's just build better board I guess.
I think Cores would need some bonus to justify the downsides of clumping 5 models up. I could see myself using Haris teams still in some cases if I want models in the midfield. Especially for something like Morats that have a dearth of deployment skills. I find myself taking fireteams (especially core teams) in Sectorials mainly because I feel forced to rather than because I want to.
I wouldn't use them if they had no bonuses, the drawbacks are far too heavy as outlined by IJW. I also don't like how static the games tend to get with defensive cores (and how time consuming and swingy aggressive cores get) and how the rest of the list tends to get grouped up protecting that core. I'd be happier if Sectorial Fireteams got scaled down to Tohaa levels, even if it is outside my comfort zone.
I also think it would largely be the death of vanilla line troops. Outside of Pano how often are people seeing the unlinked 10pt body with a combi taken. When there are options like Rokots and Jaguars are you really going to take alguaciles or line kazaks?
I’m not really surprised by the responses - I mostly agree with what was said. What I’m really wondering is how small the bonuses could be to be worthwhile, but wanted to challenge myself by looking at the most extreme end of the spectrum first. I personally find fireteam bonuses to feel a little bit too much at times, especially with the way new mixed fireteams let you min-max. Without wildcards and special fireteams, there are more power limits built in. A fireteam of just basic line troops can easily get to 5 members, but is starting with a baseline of low stats. A full team of HI is really powerful, but is much more constrained by cost. But one or two HI backed up by cheap LI get you the bonuses on the troops that can use them effectively without breaking the bank. Anyway, thanks for the responses! It’s been interesting to hear what people think.
It might an interesting idea to limit Fireteam:Core to 'core' units like the basic line troopers and have most of the fancier units limited to Haris teams. If that were the case, perhaps allow 1 core and 2 haris teams in a list. Say for example Morats (as I play them), I'd be happy with Core limited to Vanguard with a single Suryat allowed in the team. The rest of the current Core units (Rodoks, Yaogat and Suryats) limited to Haris teams.
