Pistols with +1B in CC

Nothing expressly says so. IDK if this is intentional though.

I personally would play that Pistol CC is always B1 unless confirmed.

 

I can find nothing in the rules to suggest that the +1B that, f.ex., Krit Kokram has on his Heavy Pistols would not apply to CC Attacks. Just remember that this will only apply in the active turn.

 

So the Kum Zuleyka would have B4 with her Breaker Pistols in CC?

 

I don't think that is the intention with the +1B for guns (as a rule revision of Dual Weapons), even though Pistols are listed under CC Weapons.

 

Ahh yes, already forgot that limitation.

It almost certainly isnt the intention, but RAW is what counts if an argument in a game would arise now.

 

Doesnt page 81 of the rules solve it ? Says that:

BS Attack (+1B) means that, when its user declares a BS Attack in their Active Turn, they must apply a +1 MOD to their BS Weapon’s Burst.

Pistol in CC is not a BS attack but a CC attack. So you dont get an additional burst.

 

This appears to be the relevant text, from p81:

• The value of an Attribute, Burst, Damage, Ammunition, number of uses... in round brackets next to a Special Skill, Weapon, or Equipment will be used, applying its effects if necessary, only when using that Special Skill, Weapon or Equipment.

The Weapon is being used. It's possible that this is unintentional, but unless @HellLois says otherwise for intent, that's what the rules say, and I doubt it will be changed.

As @Mahtamori says, remember that it's Active Turn only.

Note that we're not discussing BS Attack (+1B).

 

This would be a very powerful change, and seems like an oversight that snuck in via the convoluted paths of RAW.

There are a -lot- of +1 B pistol profiles out there, and few of them are CC-oriented units.

This would be something well worth a minor rules correction/erratum.

Declining to change it just out of a desire to make as few changes/edits as possible right after publishing would be understandable from one angle, but pretty bad for both rules balance and community perception of rules balance.

 

It might not be considered such a substantial issue as to warrant errata. I think the biggest boost in power this RAW would give would be to Jaan Staar and Ko Dali, neither of whom were really setting the world on fire with their CC prowess anyway.

 

zuleyka kum has cc22 and pistol +2b

 

Yep, that's shown above. She has to give up EXP ammo for one extra burst (she has CC Attack(+1B) anyway), which is actually a reasonable trade-off all things considered.

 

She also has an EXP CCW at +1B and higher PH than the Breaker Pistols.

 

As you say yourself, it’s mostly on units that are not CC-oriented, and therefore would benefit very little from this*.

*EDIT because they’d mostly get a benefit from it in defence, but it’s an active-turn-only MOD, and in most situations they’re going to be better off shooting with B3 Pistols instead of CCing with B2 Pistols.

And it’s not likely to be an oversight, although only @HellLois can tell us that.

Given that the rule itself is clear, and 100% consistent with all other items that have (+B), I strongly doubt an exception is going to be added to the game just for Pistols.

 

To put a finer point on it: The units who have +1 B pistols are not -supposed- to be powerful CC units, but by giving them B2 or higher in CC this would -make- them powerful CC units.

Every single Zuyong (for example) now swings twice at CC 17 for example. That's a pretty big jump in CC ability for a piece of gear that is quite clearly not costed for that.

It does get even more powerful on something like Desperados, true. Going from B1 CC 21 to B2 CC22 is a pretty big deal, and would cost a lot more if that were actually added as +1B CC, one would think.

The exception could be added to the CC rules, not pistols themselves. Thus no big inconsistencies, and only one thing to change.

 

That's exactly the kind of unit I meant. In reaction it does nothing. In the active turn, outside of some niche situations involving Smoke or Mimetism (-6), using a Combi Rifle with BS16, B3 and Damage 13 is much better than CC17, B2 and Damage 12. Even if it's a target where 'breaker' is useful, shooting gets you BS16 and B3.

OK. I don't think you've registered how much CC output has gone up for Warbands in N4. Desperadoes benefit a lot from +1B, but they still fall far behind Shaolins and Morlocks in how devastating they are once they reach CC.

A 6pt Shaolin is (obviously) slower, but is hitting with CC26 and a -3 opponent MOD, and Damage 15 DA.
A 6pt Morlock with EM CCW is (probably) slower, and is hitting with CC26 and a -3 MOD, and Damage 14 'DA against halved BTS than also causes Isolated and IMM'.

Have you looked at Zuleyka who was mentioned up-thread?

Obviously she's a massive 5pt more expensive (and is faster and Dodges further), but CC22 B2 Damage 13 EXP beats CC21 B2 Damage 13* any day of the week in raw damage output.

*Because the twin Assault Pistol option is likely to remain the most popular one.

 

Ah, I see, you're quite right. Much better option to just shoot.

You know I really hadn't (only one game with JSA this week, and didn't focus on CC in that). I see what you're saying, the +1B doesn't make a ton of difference there. Good point, thanks for taking the time to explain it.