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N3.5 TTS practice: Thoughts, Impressions

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I've been getting some games in with Tabletop Simulator, playing N3 with as many of the N4 changes as we know about. I've primarily been playing VIRD, since there's a bit of a wait before Shock and NCA will be available.

    A short list of the most notable changes I've been using:
    • New crit rules
    • Tac Window as standard
    • REMs going prone
    • Shotgun changes
    • Suppressive Fire via Command Token
    • Spotlight usable in ARO
    • New cover rules (thanks @ThananRollice for the reminder)
    • New Jammer rules
    Highlights:

    • We all know how durable 2-Wound units are going to be from a theoretical standpoint. Seeing it in practice though, these units get very durable. Seeing units walk away from a Fuerbach Crit, for example, takes some getting used to.
    • I'm not convinced, at all, that Hacking will be a reliable counter for halting big threats. BTS is still a chore to get through, and there's nothing stopping an enemy from lobbing a pitcher into your DZ and KHDing whatever's there. If your target has a Tinbot as well, forget it. Even lucky Hacking Crits means your opponent could still be rolling saves at BTS9. So the big factor for Hacking is access to programs with Breaker, or whose effects don't rely on a failed BTS save.
    • Don't have too many illusions about PanO's infowar capability. A lot of factions are still going to run rings around us. This creates an interesting quandry for PanO plays, about doubling down on Hacking vs not engaging with it.
    • The shotgun changes completely alter the threat that shotguns offer, and make them a much less lethal option. Burst 2 BS-based attack vs a single target isn't reliable, and the inability to splash distant targets no longer gives you the opportunity to extend the shotgun's range while still using the +6 band. Cheap shotgun units will shift a lot in utility, moving away from cheap strikers to defensive turrets/opportunistic attackers. This is actually a situation where Combi + shotgun pays dividends, since you can lean on the range and Burst of that Combi to help give you a backup to the shotgun.
    • Airborne Units go up in stock tremendously. Every game I've played, I've seen crippling, game ending opportunities for an AD to walk on by Turn 2. Fewer lurking warbands, fewer 8 point flash REMs, etc. means that DZs are blown wide open as soon as one side starts to lose the attrition war.
    • Cracking armor and decisively threatening multi-Wound targets is a must. I'm not even playing with the point reduction to Heavy Infantry and TAGs, and lists are already favoring multi-Wound units and heavy metal. One TJC list I played against had eight 2-Wound models in a 15 Order list (Hollowmen link, Puppets.)
    • Helots, Warcors, Tech Bee (all useful staples in any list I could include them) are staying at home. Having units that don't contribute orders, or at the very least generate pseudo 2 Orders (Irregular + Impetuous) just don't seem to have a place. This is particularly true for Helots and Warcors, who have no in-built Order efficiency like warbands, and whose role is pretty much always disposable ARO. That's a unit design whose risk doesn't feel worth any potential reward.
    • I anticipate the ITS landscape changing quite a lot, because it will be much more difficult for players to maximize 10-point scoring in a single round. I think this will make ITS scoring a lot more exciting, because it will be difficult for dominant players to establish an insurmountable lead. I expect fewer 9 pt or 15 pt "perfect records" in three and five game formats.
    • Core link. This is probably the biggest list building quandary in my mind. In N3, I was moving away from big bad ass kicking links for a number of reasons. First, they can easily be a lot of points and resources that the enemy can simply avoid, because the link is always concentrated in one area of the table. Second, losing that link can be devastating if you have too many points tied up in it. However, in N4, I simply don't know if it will be possible to move away from Core teams. Link bonuses are really valuable for allowing low-Burst AP weapons to overcome hard targets. Virtually all armor-cracking weapons (besides AP Burst 4) need +1 Burst, +3 BS to gain significant traction in f2f. Figuring out how much you invest in your Core link, and how/where you put your armor-cracking weapons, will be important for list building. I'm valuing tools like K1 and Breaker a lot more, since they tend to sit on respectable gunfighters who can apply pressure when an enemy is avoiding your big guns.
    I get asked frequently if I "like" the N4 changes. Personally (and I think some competitive players will agree) that edition changes are like changes in the weather. You can't control it, and being frustrated about the changes doesn't really alter the fact they're coming, so you simply adapt your plans to figure it out. However, I do think that N4 is going to exacerbate some existing issues, rather thing fixing them.

    For example:
    I think N4's focus on durable units and Tactical Window is going to significantly disrupt Infinity's internal and external balance, making huge swathes of units useless. I think factions that have 10+ years of design ethos behind them are being bandaged with quick fixes to try and adapt them to a new ruleset. I'm wary about that.

    As a Warcor, I think N4 will make my job easier in some ways (streamlined rules, cleaner understanding for new players) and far more difficult in others. For example, I spent most of N2 teaching new players how not to get TAG stomped, and I'm not really excited for that to be the primary focus of N4. Some of my 3.5 games are against an old Infinity veteran who is coming back to the game after a hiatus. Does a Cutter-centric meta seem like a landscape that will be fun for him? I have my doubts.

    Anyone else getting in some 3.5 games, real or simulated?
     
    #1 barakiel, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
  2. Commoner1

    Commoner1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree wholeheartedly with your results.

    My impression so far ist that the tactical tagline for N4 might as well be "The Return of the Rambo" with everything it might entail, like beating down your opponent down to 80 points in round 1 and then farm OP for the rest of the game while he can't do anyting meaningful or games becoming extremely swingy when Multi HMGs enter the fray and decimate center pieces with 3 bad ARM rolls.

    I have great hopes for the rules cleanup though.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    As a minor aside, note that CodeOne/N4 Surprise Attack MODs apply to all targets of an Attack, not just to Face to Face Rolls. So Shotguns on Marker-state Troopers are still terrifying, although you obviously need to get closer.

    For example a Croc Men BSG shooting from Cover is going to be putting everyone under the templates on -12BS to shoot back, or PH-3 to Dodge.

    • This Attack imposes an additional negative MOD, as shown in round brackets in the Unit Profile [Surprise Attack (-3), Surprise Attack (-6)...]. This MOD only applies to targets of the Attack, and applies to any Skill Roll that those targets perform in ARO.
     
    #3 ijw, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  4. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    I have about 3 or so games with Tunguska using a 3.5 ruleset. I didn't incorporate all of the changes that you have, some of them weren't announced yet. All were played with the same list built around delivering spotlight in ARO as a deterrent alongside Jammers (didn't know they were disposable yet, but it wouldn't have changed much). My experience has me feeling strongly that Spotlight will be the hacking program of choice to stop Rambos as it skips BTS and is a major debuff and order sink to remove.

    I wish I could draw more conclusive predictions about the state of N4, but I just haven't played enough yet.
     
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  5. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    All good points. I don't necessarily agree with all of them, but I can definitely respect your opinions!
    My friends and I have been integrating every "confirmed" N4 rule into our N3 games for a couple months now and I think we all have been enjoying it a lot.
    - The Crit change is great, and really helps some of them prevent tilting from getting crit. You definitely feel more "in control" since you still get to roll dice.
    - I'm enjoying the new binary cover rules a ton, just because it makes gameplay so much quicker.
    - I already played Tactical Window without knowing, so my list building will only be slightly affected.
    - I'll definitely miss old shotguns, but I can absolutely respect the new threat and abilities they can impose. It was always difficult to explain how impact teardrops worked to new players anyway. Every single person expected them to work how N4 is ruling them.
    - I'm extremely excited for HI and TAG points decreases, especially in SWC as was mentioned.

    Even as I'm seeing the new profiles and changes revealed for other armies, it's just making me more excited for our reveals! Here's hoping we get some PanO previews this Friday :)
     
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  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Interesting quick replies, thanks all.

    @Commoner1
    I'm really worried about Turn 1s. All my TTS wins so far have come from beating my opponent down to a bad combat group split. Leaving your opponent with like a 6/4 split in orders after the opening turn makes it really difficult for them to function.

    @ijw
    Thanks for the insight. There's definitely some good opportunity to play with modifiers... I'm especially excited for Nimbus. I'm primarily concerned with the ultra-short range. One of the main reasons I always saw SMGs as being pretty well balanced was because 0-8 is an incredibly dangerous, difficult, order hungry zone to initiate an attack from. Especially with an emphasis on higher points-per-mini, I worry a bit about having to get that close for a shotgun to make a notable impact.

    @jfunkd
    I'll be curious to see who continues to use and get mileage out of jammers. No argument about spotlight and how valuable it is. I think that revealing a Hacker to plant that threat has a lot of value, since you can potentially bait out 3-4 more Orders to get an enemy to KHD your Hacker, or you can try to slap on Targeted and other effects for free. Not bad.

    @ThananRollice
    For sure, there's plenty to be excited for. I find that the crit rules and the focus on Armor and the cover rules and fewer Orders all combine in a way that's slightly stressful. Having to hammer hard to remove a Heavy Infantry is an interesting experience. I ultimately didn't think it would be that different from N3, but I find all the new factors of N4 combine in a way that distinctly feels different. I won't say good or bad yet,
     
    #6 barakiel, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  7. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    The value of AP weaponry has definitely gone up, that's for sure.
     
  8. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
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    I think that the Heckler Jammer is still going to be a respectable profile in N4 for TJC. Even though the Heckler is one of the worst WIPs for the Jammer, the FD1 Fast Panda with TJC's Hacker support getting so much better makes me believe that it should continue to see table time.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    @jfunkd The Heckler's fulfilling a really nice role. TJC's ability to deny area has gotten a lot stronger with recent releases, so I'll be curious to see if TJC players still value the Jammer for its defensive role. No question that Jammer units get better if they have another valuable tool to bring to the table. I'm still making my mind up about the Zulu Cobra... Sensor's good of course, and helps offset the changes to Sensor, and Triangulated Fire has its place. That being said, I really value the Pathfinder for being a cheap, quick, versatile Specialist that's also a Repeater. So choosing between those two sources of Sensor now requires some deliberation, because 29 points for a ZC is a pretty considerable expense.

    Another factor to consider too is if Sensor remains the same as it is now. If Sniffers are a thing of the past, it will partially redefine how we use Sensor.
     
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  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    N3 was getting stale and changes were needed, so anything changing up the meta is a win short term.
    Some of the armies I play completely change, some drop the Warcor take the extra points fro cheaper HI and TAGs and end up at a net profit.

    But it just feels weird and I can't put my finger on what it is.

    Varuna is an example of something that's just not gonna be there anymore in N4. The core of what it is changes so much it's basically a new Sectorial. Same for Hassassins and I guess a bunch of other Sectorials and it's not even likely to be a bad thing by itself. Competent asymetric Infinity isn't the most fun thing to play against. That was true playing vs loads of Mutts and Daylami and I'm pretty sure far from everyone enjoyed playing against Kamau MSR, 3 Helots and 2 ZC Jammers either.

    On the flip side I'm fairly certain it wasn't much fun to get ran over by Alpha Strike lists either.
    At this point I don't enjoy the game turning towards RPG party links, kill or be killed and sucker punch ARO oneshots. There's basically no incentive to try something else than smash a TAG, elite HI or Core Link into the other guy with 10+ Orders + complementary group 2 killer to clear the way or mop up - while juggling enough of an ARO presence to prevent the other guy from doing the same.
    Then again I also don't want triple Noctifier List being auto wins against all those HI Links you couldn't really run in N3.

    Nothing in N4 so far has actually made changes to the core loop of Infinity, which remains to kill and disable stuff faster than it can kill you, rather than shifting the focus on Objectives. It feels like the killing part is going to be a lot more satisfying for the big stuff and less frustrating against the cheap shit, but it's going to stay killing unless ITS changes a lot.
     
    #10 Teslarod, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  11. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Cheers for your thoughts on this @barakiel it's always good to see this kind of thinking unfold.

    Unfortunately I don't have play experience with the N4 rules much yet, and only got in a very little bit of Code One, but I certainly agree that the role of Shotguns changes considerably. And, yes, Combi+Light Shotgun is a LOT less of a penalty loadout than it once was.

    The thing I'm most curious about is how you see PanOceanian lists responding to this "play ground for Alpha Strikers" meta which I agree is very likely. How do WE go about countering it effectively?
     
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  12. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Hey IJW, am I reading it wrong that dodging a shotgun attack will be -6 if you don't have LoF?

    -3 for no LoF, -3 for multiple templates?

    @barakiel definitely seeing similar things to you. Particularly the change to ARM and wound units and therefore the greater emphasis on weapons which can crack these bad boys open.

    I agree that tactical window, while changing the meta, might deform it too much. But at least its an ITS mod and can be adjusted, along with how missions are set up to tweak the meta as before.

    Overall, I like the core game changes to what is useful in the game. Changes to crits alone, along with reduction in points do massive favours for more expensive troops. Tactical window might take that too far, but I think CB aren't quite sure how to balance out just taking huge order pools backing up your favourite elite trooper.

    As the ancient curse goes, may we live in interesting times.
     
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  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    I think the devil's going to be in the details there. Does Stun remain, or is it going away? Can Stun be cleared? Those will change a MULTI Sniper from an indifferent weapon vs HI/TAGs to a defining weapon when fighting both. The same is applied to Hacking Devices... How will they change? What programs will be available on what devices, and what's the final point cost? If Hacking goes down in cost, but Camo goes up in cost, does that leave the Croc Hacker the same? Cheaper? Costlier? These are all unknown variables which will significantly impact list building.

    I do know I'm getting pretty fond of that linked ORC Fuerbach, and he's available to multiple flavors of PanO.

    @Teslarod
    VIRD's definitely going through massive changes. The Sectorial's defining characteristic (Jammer, Neurocinetics, MSV2) is pulverized pretty thoroughly. I liked our discussion a lot about Varuna Division ORCs and what they can offer. As with above, the devil will be in the details... Point decrease, MOV changes, those are all significant. The ORC is poised to become a true winner of this edition, if certain changes come about. I think Patsy could offer a lot more than she ever did in N3, too.

    @Alphz
    I like your perspective on Tac Window remaining optional. I have a hard time seeing past it, because the default way of playing ITS almost always becomes, well, the default when a TO is putting an event together. I have a hard time seeing past it right now. But I also think it will be interesting if certain groups, cities, or even countries decide they would rather play without it. That will be fascinating.
     
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  14. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    My impression is that N4 is going to be presented, in the rules, as "15 units max". Even if there are changes to the ITS that presentation will be difficult to shake. So I don't expect anything other than "Tactical Window" as the default setting for the edition. The possibility of meta deviation does seem strong 'though, which would be the very worst of outcomes.

    I wonder about weapon changes in general, will even the Fuerbach come out as it is now?
     
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  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    That's a very good question. Virtually any change to a weapon can have ramifications. Playing with rangebands, playing with Burst values, these all have a really big impact on the role of weapons. And obviously we've seen extreme examples, such as shotguns, where their entire ruleset and tactical role has now changed. Little details with the possibility of bringing big change.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    That’s the default in the rule book, yes. It’s not just an ITS restriction. But it also goes with a section later in the book about free game mode for using your own restrictions/alterations, like lifting the 15 Trooper cap, or altering the amount of SWC available, or playing on non-standard table sizes.

    What -3 for multiple templates?
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Hm. I swear this was written differently when I read it last week, but maybe I totally misread it. There is no extra malice for multiples it seems. Sorry about that.

    upload_2020-9-17_11-56-34.png
    While we're here though, I assume these two bullet points are the same -3 MOD and do not stack.
    upload_2020-9-17_11-59-19.png
     

    Attached Files:

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  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I've had bunch games of N3.5 adaptations of varying degrees so far with a another lined up this evening. I've had games with Combined Army, Nomads, Yu Jing, Haqq, and Hassassins (the latter using the new profiles and nerfed mutts), and have played against Acontecimento, Aleph, Ariadna, O-12 Caledonia, Dashat, Spiral, Combined Army and JSA.

    ...huh. That list is longer than I thought it would be. TTS hoooo.

    Anyway, thoughts so far:
    • A lot has changed, but more has stayed the same. Even with e.g. the new cover rules and smoke blocking LOF to fewer units, the basic precepts of maneuver warfare and risk management still see you through.
    • The table and how you use terrain still has a big effect on the effectiveness of long range (e.g. core linked) firepower. A highly dense table still favours mobility skills, area denial and close assault; a highly porous table still requires you to either engage in or find alternatives to gear-check gunfighting.
    • The relative balance of alpha strikes doesn't yet feel hugely different to N3, but bear in mind the factions I'm primarily playing (chiefly vanilla, good at defending, etc, which will mitigate some of the effect Barakiel describes above). I do expect we'll see more 'rocket tag' games where two aggressively oriented lists encounter one another and the game is decided by who strikes a decisive blow first, although it will still be far, far less common than it was in e.g. N3 limited insertion events.
    • I've used the ability to command token a model into suppressive fire only once, against an opponent I knew had a counterintelligence model. It was ok. I think taking a model or two in your list to take advantage of the new option is a solid idea, but stripping two orders is often better if you can.
    • Disposable (2) on jammers makes me a bit less inclined to do what I used to do with them, which is chuck them inside the safest interior space at the top of some building somewhere and cackle. They're still effective tools, though (one game I kept my opponent in loss of lieutenant the entire game in part off the back of jammer attacks).
    • Hacking is going to take some shaking out. It's hard to predict its effect properly from an N3.5 game for a few reasons:
      • We're playing with N3 points mostly so hacking devices aren't much recosted and heavy infantry discounts haven't been broadly applied so neither hacking devices themselves or their expected target-rich environment can fully materialise; and
      • Nobody will have played N3.5 long enough to hit that disaster state that makes you re-evaluate how risky you can be inside a repeater network, e.g. getting your Su-Jian carbonited and then oblivioned when you try to reset out of it because it won't go away by itself like it used to. On that note, one of the lowkey biggest changes might well be the persistence of effects caused by hacking. The effects of that will take time to digest.
    • Notwithstanding the above I absolutely have had a game where what should have been an absolute kill-run with Sheshkiin stalled horribly because I got targeted by spotlight on the way in and suddenly all my F2F rolls weren't as good.
    • The cost of camo seems like it might be rising and that sucks a bit for ariadna but on the other hand the power of a good obfuscation defence is higher than ever. Disposable elements to detonate mines and force reactions from a sea of marker states will be at an all-time low, and more traditional ways for dealing with this kind of roadblock (e.g. MSV3s for the factions that can access them) will be powerful back-pocket tools for these matchups.
    • We haven't yet seen the full rules for impetuous models/movement (just hints) and whatever they are in full will have a significant impact on how effective impetuous models are in N4. Permissive/forgiving rules around expenditure of impetuous troopers could offer a serious buff for troops like the impetuous bikers.
    • Notwithstanding the changes to crits, the changes to the martial arts table makes close combat about as dangerous as it always was thanks to the static damage buffs many melee troops will get.
    • As noted above, ammunition types on troopers is more relevant in N4. This isn't necessarily just limited to AP ammo; more generally weapons like the DAM13 red fury that's on many powerful N3 models (sheshkiin, mowang, mukhtar etc) won't be as reliable a gun both because of the crit change and because it will be harder (not impossible) to catch enemies out of cover.
    • A small thing but the changes to REMs being able to go prone and also models standing up when they recover from unconscious is a weird buff to TR Remotes. Put them behind a rampart and they'll drop prone when they go unconscious; heal them by crawling your palbot 3" prone over to them and they'll pop back up for free without spending an order to have to stand.
    • The crit change is a major threat to the current model archetype of the 1ARM no wound incap (occasionally shock immune) elite light infantry character/trooper. I've already lost Liang Kai once to a single shotgun crit from a 112 that took him to dead when he didn't crit back with his CC27 melee attack. True HI or even the ARM3 pseudo-HI like Zenchas or the new Evaders are much more likely to shrug off bad luck like this.

    Edit: I should also add that basically all the QOL changes from N3 to N4 that we've seen so far have been wonderful. A comment I made back when N4 was announced was that I hope CB did what they could to fix all those little interactions that you have to tell new players 'ok I know you think it works that way, but it actually works this way...' and as far as I can tell they've covered off a lot of the ones I was hoping for, and a few more besides. There's a notable increase in smoothness in terms of how the game generally plays.
     
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  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    To second a couple points from this breakdown (good one btw).
    TR Bots are looking to be the thing you run every game instead of warm bodies now.
    - C1 has them at 2 points (so anywhere 17-22) and even if they stay at 25 the chance to stay up against after eating any sort of Crit is a massive improvement.
    - Cheaper SWC for other troops makes them easier to include
    - Going Prone when going down means you're very likely to repair them.
    - New Cover rules help anything, but S3 and bigger benefit the most.
    - Their natural enemy, Multi Snipers to outrage them and stack -12 MODs, got nerfed with DA being only B1 for Active.
    - With less things on the Board, 360 Visors to cover more angles become more important to prevent AD surprises and flanking.
    - Ofc they remain useful on their Active turn as well.

    Sensor Bots and Flashpulse bots share the easier cover and going Prone. Additionally they get:
    - Repeaters on a 6-4 Trooper who can go Prone (and has C+/Superjump in several armies to get on rooftops) are going to be useful for defending and attacking as well.

    Hacking as a whole including Support Programs, final point costs and Profile Changes are all going to have massive impact.
    Even assuming SWC or with guessing reduced SWC costs my N3.5 lists have all been SWC capped to the last 0.5 SWC. With Warcor, Techbee and Helots mostly gone, any other defense multiplier becomes more relevant. Minelayers, Perimeter, TO ARO pieces, Linked Sniper/MLs. Safe choices like the Croc FO's Deployable Repeaters are more attractive.
    Rifle class weapons in general got better, in between Shotguns losing a lot of their offensive appeal on single wound models, SMGs finding themselves up against DTWs everywhere and (while I don't think it's great) there's also the new SF deployment option for them.

    Multi Rifles are getting a few points cheaper and their Ammo type matters more than in N3, combined with BSGs being less attractive and SWC being tight, they look about to be in a good spot for once.

    No idea why Multi Snipers got nerfed at first glance, haven't done the Math if they got cheaper as well to compensate. We haven't seen all their changes yet, depending on potential access to Shock and changes to Stun they might be in a good place.

    What hasn't happened is having too many points for the 15 slots in a list. I still find myself including 5+ Order Monkeys to fit bigger and meaner stuff. Things do feel a lot more comfortable around the TAG, HI Link or 2 Guards for sure though. Losing the center piece still leaves you with a list that makes sense without it and something else to pick up the slack.
    Irregular troops are limited to things like Yojimbo, who is going to get some Orders, or the token Monk to have Smoke. Stuff like Helots makes an appearance in very top heavy lists, i.e. Cutter lists.

    Curious what will happen to a few N3 "duds", namely Uhlan, KothS, Bolts
    Others like Orcs and Aquila are looking great.
    A little concerned about the Camo/Infiltration nerfbat. Crocs/TO Spec Sergeant aren't the best thing ever, getting more expensive could be pretty bad, reducing them to virtual AVA1 or mission specific Turn 3 Objective grabbers. Even DZ bound TO has me worried, especially Hexas after looking at the Tankhunter Profile. C1 Swiss seems to be fine thanks to benefiting from being a HI, the ML in particular is something I expect to use a lot more now. Devastating TO ARO gotcha only gets better, the Crit change is his best friend, the changes to his LSG are overall nice for him too.
    Similar to the Tankhunter Profile, the Wildcat Profile doesn't look like MI is going to be any good in N4. Being as expensive as Evaders is in no way shape or form a reason to assume CB figured out what to do with MI. Aside from the usual "hey that one Profile would be good in a link" crap they didn't even try to give Wildcats a decent fillter to allow Wildcats as the base for their own Link. At this rate Bolts are going to end up as the CoC on duty to hide, unable to keep up with cheaper Fusiliers providing Link boni to something like and Aquila or Orcs being about 7-9 points more expensive for vastly superior statline and speed. Not to mention that MI Links still would have to provide a reason to take them over a TAG/Elite HI + LI Link.

    Anyway, interesting times ahead for sure.
     
  20. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I have enjoyed reading all your comments. Really interesting. @barakiel thanks for create the topic.

    I have quoted a lot to Teslarod, but it was only because he wrote some points, which have awaked my interest and too it was one of the first to make comments.

    I really don't understand why a lot of people think varuna don't will do well in N4 playing same as now. Yes, we will face probably more "TAGs" than we do now in N3, but still "kamau" remain as one of the best ARO pieces while in a 5 member fireteam. At least one of the best we can deploy in Varuna (if nothing changes a lot in the sectorial). Same for the "helots", why they will not fix in N4 style anymore as I understand @barakiel said. I think they will do more than now even. Yes, active targets wil be "harder" to put down, but a helot with "full" burst have more chances to do it in a single ARO than a guy with "burst 1". This kind of profiles allow us to have a "strong" ARO in a expendable group and keep the main group save.

    I think this is pretty much the same right now. 15 troups cap it will not be a "strong game changer" here. Of course, having a shorter window for "surprises" when going into a tournament allow us to make "more solid lists". We will not to be prepared to face the possibility of spam or an heavy list with tag in the same tournament, so, of course, it is a little more chance for "the first" can rush the enemy than before. I could not deny absolutely this. But I think it will not so different as it is now. The ITS missions will have a lot of weight on this matter.

    But it was allways the question. Same in N3. How we should approach the victory it will only a thing of how well designed the ITS Scenarios are made. In N3 mostly a player try to cripple the adversary's army, do some points and avoid the enemy to do the same. I think this will not change for the CAP windows, only for a "better" design of ITS mission, more exactly on "how the points are done".

    Yes, yes and yes. They are yet a lot of things we don't know right now, and some could provoke a change on how we should deal with a threat

    I have said about this in the first "replies" XD.


    The Game is gonna change, of course. If the heavy guys are cheaper, then we will have more of them on the table, so we should to change how we play or what we include in our lists. I think simplify the rules is not the only goal of the new edition. But changes probably will not so dramatic as most os us could think right now.

    If things with commands tokens and others "rules" are well made, them, the mechanisms to deal against stronght active pieces will be there. I remain optimistic until I can read camly all the new rulebook and taste the changes in some games.

    Maybe the changes provoke a major gap between active armies and the reactives ones, or maybe it could happens that exists some kind of more circular confrontation, where army A do really well against army B but not so well against type C.

    We will see.

    Thanks to all for share your thoughts.
     
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