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Why not try to be more positive?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Redfaint, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    A friend told me it's a very cultural thing from Galicia, a region of Spain. More or less their conflict resolution is to pretend the mistake never happened. Similar to Japanese culture when you fuck up you do your best to sweep it under the rug by just ignoring it and pretending there isn't a problem. Whether or not that's accurate I have no idea, but it resonates with how CB has a bad habit of going radio silent when mistakes are made and how hard the community has had to shove them on things in the past like fixing rules errors.


    People didn't have a problem with Yu Jing being portrayed as evil or the bad guys, the complaints were Yu Jing were being portrayed as "stupid evil". The fiction was poorly written and made little logical sense, @Section9 basically spent weeks ripping into the plot holes. I haven't seen him in forever and maybe covid killed him, he's American after all, but you can dig through his post history it's all in there.


    Ok so at the time the operating rule for HI was Ariadna = 1W, everyone else = 2W. The Ariandans also had some form of pseudo wound be it dogged or full NWI. Additionally all HI were immune to shock, regardless of whether they were 1 or 2 wounds. Invincible Army introduced the concept of higher tech factions having what were labled at the time fake HI, and this was more or less done by CB to cheat the points formula to keep costs down to try and make sure IA was competitive. To which the counter argument was just make them 2W and discount the damn things by hand if the formula is obviously broken.

    This was completely unexpected, nobody asked for it, and it upset alot of people on the basis of theme. It also really didn't help that the Zencha to this day remains the only HI in the game that dies to Shock ammo. You could say that reveal shocked and upset alot of people too.

    You're probably also already aware about the fluff 180s on the Tigers and the Daofei. People felt cheated by that, and it didn't help that the visible replacements of the Lui Xing for the Tiger was hit and miss at best, and pissed alot of people off including myself at being such a lukewarm profile. The Zencha, while a good profile in its own right and a massive boon for Vanilla, was perceived as being a weak sectorial replacement for the Daofei and had the previously mentioned insult of being HI that is terrified of mines.

    The excuse we were given by @Bostria at the time, who was coming into the forum threads directly and trolling (which was a fucking idiotic move but it's what he does), was that the Daofei was removed because it shared a white faceplate with the Guilangs. That made no sense obviously because the Hac Tao were in IA as well, and as we've noticed they're also absent from White Banner now. So that just pissed people off even more.

    Lastly the general expectation that everyone had going into IA's release was that two long running terribly underpowered units that had during their lifetimes received fantastic sculpts, the Shang Ji and the Guijia, were going to receive much needed reworks.

    The Shang Ji remained an overly expensive Zuyong, and the Guijia received literally nothing. To add further insult, the Guijia's literal Morat clone TAG the Raicho received an overhaul and debuted brand new rules. So that pissed off even more people. It wasn't until like over a year later the Guijia received some changes with ITS introducing TacAw for all TAGs, and CB also changing out the absolutely worthless AP CCW for a DA CCW for free on the Guijia at the same moment.

    Oh... and then there was Shit Dickram. He came out a bit later completely out of the blue. He didn't release with IA so he was completely unexpected as he wasn't attached to any Dire Foes or fluff or anything. His profiles were a mess though, and CB utterly botched his announcement which devolved into a shitstorm of a thread so that didn't earn them any goodwill either.

    So like @BenMoss explained basically IA's release was CB's chance to start earning back the trust and goodwill they'd lost from the botched handling of Uprising. Unfortunately they didn't do a good job of it.
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    That's some impressive Angry Divorcee Energy.
     
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  3. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    What can I say GW left me with some habits.
     
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  4. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Triumph, thanks for taking the time to explain that. A lot I'm already aware of in there, but seeing it in one place helps. I still have some questions...

    I may have to do that, I've got Uprising but haven't memorized the whole thing and may be missing some key points.

    Do we actually know that last bit? I see it talked about a lot, but usually alongside phrases like "lazy design" which I find unconvincing. I don't know that I've ever actually seen supporting evidence for the claim that it's about cheating the formula.

    I hear you, but "nobody asked for it" probably also applies to a lot of other stuff in the game. I won't say that I like the Zhencha's vulnerability to Shock ammo, and it's one of the things I hope gets updated in N4, but that's more for consistency than anything else. Unusual quirks and vulnerabilities can add flavor, and on some level I wonder if adding shock immunity wouldn't make the Zhencha a little too good, especially in, say, N3 Dahshat.

    *glances at Kaplans, Ninjas, Saito, Zeros, Rev Custodiers, Spektrs, Bandits, Teutonic Knights, Crusader Brethren, etc.* White or light colors on model faces make them more of a focal point in almost any paint job. It's one of the most common colors for Infinity model faceplates, possibly the most common.

    I...uh...think that taking Bostria seriously about that would be kind of...silly? I assume he intended it to be a joke? "Why'd you move them over to the other sectorial?" "Oh, we thought they'd all look nice with matching faceplates. (laugh) But seriously, it's because we tested it and we love the other stuff we came up with, but we can't include Daofei because it makes the sectorial busted AF, so we had to cut them rather than ditching our other good ideas." I know I'm just making this up, but tell me it doesn't sound plausible.

    Okay, but where'd that expectation come from? I get hoping for that, and being let down it didn't happen, but were people really led by CB to expect those things because they were promised explicitly?
     
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  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    It's never been explicitly stated but everyone has basically come to conclusion as to that's the reason for it. There's no reason for them to be 1W in armour as tough as Zuyongs (and other HI in other factions) other than to try to slim their cost down. People draw the same conclusions when they look at a model like the Kappa hacker. He's the only profile in the unit entry that gets an SMG, and it's pretty clear it's to attempt an offset on the points cost of his hacking device.


    It's more it was supposed to be the hype replacement for the shitstorm that was Uprising. Here comes the big bad Invincible Army, are you ready for your Daofei's long awaited sectorial? Are you ready to run an army of nothing but High Tech 2W guys? Are you hype? OK!

    • We removed the Daofei
    • Here's a bunch of never before seen fake 1W HI that belong in Ariadna
    • Also one of them dies to shock. LOL!
    • Also your Guijia and Shang Ji still suck rofl

    Expectations were pretty clear going into the release, and they were not met. Targets were missed on an epic scale.


    The people who took it seriously were annoyed because it didn't make any sense, the people who understood it was trolling were still pissed well because... they were already pissed off about the whole situation and he was actively trolling them. Like I said, trolling. Low IQ move from @Bostria.


    Like I said the Morat TAG was an actual clone of the Guijia. Shared the same weapons and statline. There was one difference and it was it paid for the Morat rule because obviously it's a Morat, it was like 3pts I think off the top of my head.

    The Raicho had its profile changed and buffed a few months before we got 3rd Offensive, and it coincided with its resculpt going on sale for the Morats rework that was coming in the following book.

    That set an expectation that models that were deemed universally bad were going to get a bit of a change. We all thought the Guijia was finally getting a profile overhaul as well. Didn't happen, and everyone was left disappointed.

    In the Shang Ji's case they actually did see change but it was just an epic failure. Most people were boggled by their long running issue was that they were just expensive Zuyongs was then addressed by copying all the Shang Ji buffs onto the sister profiles in the Zuyong entries. Left us confused with are they taking the piss or do CB just not have any idea with how their game works?
     
  6. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Yeah, I would personally love for the Guijia to get...something in N4. Even if it's just a sectorial-specific IA profile with NCO. But if not...the model's still boss.

    RE: NWI and cheating the points formula to make IA competitive...if that's the real goal for NWI heavy infantry...why aren't Zuyongs NWI one-wound "HI lite" models?

    I'm legitimately confused that CB would somehow decide to use that approach, then leave it off the sectorial's equivalent of basic line troops. (In a sectorial with Hac Tao, Mowang, Shang Ji, and Yan Huo, the Zuyong is basically the Zhanshi of heavy infantry in the lineup.) Instead, it makes the sectorial's affordable specialist troops mostly fragile, and the tough specialists (Hac Tao, Krit, Tai Sheng, Shang Ji, Guijia pilot) are expensive/low AVA, the sole exception being the Zuyong specialist profiles like the 28 pt FO.

    I can't imagine the community reaction to 1W NWI Zuyongs. Presumably not great?

    Regarding Krit, depending on what happens to him in N4, we might see more of his Feuerbach FTO in IA pain trains. He's basically an Orc Feuerbach for a few points more, he's a tough 2W specialist with automedikit (which gets better in N4), and he can Engineer teammates out of glue. BS16 in a link, ARM 6 in cover, access to a linked tinbot, regenerating 2W B3 Feuerbach, in a Tactical Window seasonal format, in a faction that can get extra regular orders readily and has a camo LT2 who can put up Fairy Dust, and a linkable NCO.

    It's N3, but here's a LI list built around deploying as either a mixed Core (with spare Zuyong) or a Haris and short 3-man Core, depending on the table and objectives. 14 usable orders, 2 camo markers, potentially cheaper in N4, and includes a paramedic just in case you get desperate.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYǑNG Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 29)
    TAI SHENG Breaker Combi Rifle, Chain-colt + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Feuerbach, Chain-colt, D-Charges / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (2 | 48)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    ZHĒNCHÁ (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun, D.E.P., Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    4.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #146 wes-o-matic, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
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  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Given the climate at the time, probably not. Uprising had just happened and it was done badly. CB needed to go above and beyond to placate the community and I doubt that would've cut it.
     
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Motion that @wes-o-matic change his forum handle to King Canute.
     
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  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think you're using that reference wrong. If he were Canute he'd be explaining why you can't stop the eternal salt mine.
     
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  10. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    He is, but I'mma do it anyway.

    RELENTLESS CHEER INTENSIFIES
     
  11. krossaks

    krossaks Well-Known Member

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    Just personal opinion, but WB wasn't either a huge succes. Maybe beacuse CB realesed it unexpected and during the hardest covid times. But it feels like a comercial oriented sectorial.

    Shang-Ji are on WB to sell, Jujak feel limited by having to go with Shang-Ji. The defiance characthers are in beacuse why not. And at the end you have a sectorial with limited fireateams (pain train or zhansi +jammer + shang ji) and with a lot of good solo units. The only appeling part of the sectorial over vanilla are the Ye Maos.

    Probably its just beacuse i wanted a more IL and monk based sectorial, than another HI wildcard on IL sectorial.

    IA on the other side, may get a lot better with the HI discount, and maybe a little buff to the Zencha. Most of my issues with the Liu and the hulang were based on them being expensive as fuck
     
  12. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Hey you do you. Most people only get mad at you when you try to tell them they should be happy or grateful because X or Y.


    IA definitely stand to gain the most going into N4 out of just about anybody. Also to potentially to abuse the new format more than anyone else too.
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Canute set his throne by the sea shore and commanded the Yu Jing forums to be less salty and not shit all up in his threads and comments. Yet, continuing to complain as usual, the forums dashed over his threads and comments without respect to his royal person. Then the king leapt backwards, saying: 'Let all men know how empty and worthless is the power of kings, for there is none worthy of the name, but He whom heaven, earth, and salty fucking forums obey by eternal laws.'
     
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  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Hey, hey. I considered posting a picture of Shinobu in his thread but I haven't actually done it.

    Yet.
     
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  15. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom

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    Salutations to you.
     
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  16. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    You should totally do that, it's nice when people share their favorite Ninja proxies and HVTs for ISS. *sips tea*
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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  18. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Some points:

    - white faceplates in YJ, specially for certain units like DaoFei and Hac Tao weren't an esthetic choice, they used to signify in the fluff that the unit belonged to Svalarheima, then Hac Tao doesn't show up there. I agree white faceplates are common, but in YJs case they have a fluff explanation

    - Dao Fei has always been described in the fluff as "the tactical reconnaissance unit of the Invincible Army". Then it doesn't show in IA.

    - Tigers were always depicted in the fluff as being in IA, going as far as showing the IA crest in their dossiers when they were redesigned. Guess what?

    - IA has been pictured in the fluff forever as a new model army based on HI and the reason why YJ can stand to PanO militarily. People were hyped af by this "legendary" status and by YJ's supposed HI specialization, ESPECIALLY after the Uprising shitstorm and CB's antics at how it opened so much uber "design space" for the faction; then when IA is released we learn most of the new profiles have the stats of a MI with hackable stacked on top. Needless to say, this "here is your HI Sectorial, we are sorry they don't actually have HI stats but hey, at least they can be hacked" didn't go well.

    - then WB lands, another heavily anticipated Sectorial, the skirmisher guys that are fighting an asymmetrical battle against the almighty PanO in the frozen wastes of Svalarheima, home of the tough as nails Guilang and DaoFei and Shaolin Monks and Yj's chances of maybe getting back some characters after the purge Uprising was. Then Sectorial releases and we get IA units shoehorned in, completely nonsensical characters (only one of them is a Svalarheima character) and on top of that PanO gets Shaolin and Ninja units because why the hell not, it's not like they are Asian tropes at all.

    Now all of this after Uprising, where Yu Jing had the dubious privilege of being the only faction ever to lose the capacity to play one of their Sectorials with all their characters (Exrah weren't a Sectorial), after having the dubious privilege of being the only faction ever to have onf their characters transplanted to another faction because "kErRiGAn is k00l"

    So maybe you'll excuse some of the veteran players here having very little trust in CB when it comes to YJ as they don't seem to know what to do with the faction.

    Edit: about the cultural disconnection thing, I'm Spanish, we are not a different species, we are still the same culture than the rest of western people so no, CB's lack of communication is not part of some secret Spanish or Galician cultural bias. I mean, Zara is also from Galicia and you don't see them behaving strangely, right?
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  20. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    With bonus Oniwaban!!!
     
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