Problem is they denested Shock Immunity from just about everything. This solution is a good one, but it would put a tax on the entire REM and TAG classes and about a third of the game's infantry.
the problem at the beggining was that those Greeks didn't pay for NWI (or it had a big discount in aleph, not all skills/equipment have the same cost in between factions). Later CB saw that those freebies were a problem because there was a lack in shock for some factions, so they started to release more of it, which affected so many other units. Thats just another example of why asking for nerf/buffs across the board to X is wrong, but people keep asking for it and complain at people for asking to deeper approaches. Remember also that SMG got buffed because steel phalanx players complained nonstop about the unusefulness of their thorakitai specialists and "fillers"... which were the first to highly benefit from the boost to smg. The correct solution (in my opinion) at the beggining was to fix the NWI cost and check every aleph NWI trooper, but instead, but instead, they solved 2 claims at once: made better thoras, and brought more shock to some factions (not to all of them, SMG have been not so extended until late years). Now the problem seems to be tha NWI is maybe too expensive while shock inmunity is too cheap. Both look right priced in my opinion, but NWI without SI should be a bit cheaper compared to both skills at the same time. What is the problem? SI on 1W troopers cannot be as expensive, the same way NWI should not be as cheap on 1W 1unconscous level trooper than 2W 2 unconscious level troopers, but if they were to fix that, there will be claims from other sides
You think REMs pay for the "Shock Immunity"? I thought they only list it, to make it easier for new players. And if they pay, I think the base "REM" will be cheaper by the same amount. Together it should be Zero Sum, because the REM doesn't gain anything from Shock Immunity if coming from N3.
rems allways payed for those perks. Remotes have allways been a bit more expensive that similar troopers, around 4 points for the extra move, repeater, shock inmunity and the second unconscious level
What I meant was more ... additionally. Like in N3, you have the Base REM, costing maybe 10 points and including: Shock Immunity, second unconscious level and so on. Now in N4, you have maybe the same REM costing 6 points and paying extra 2 points for SI and 2 points for the second unconscious level. If adjusting the price for SI for troopers you can lower the price of the base REM without affecting troopers. So in N4.1 the same REM would cost maybe 5 points, adding 3 points for SI and 2 points for the second unconscious level. This way you could change the values for troopers like Patroclus or Kusanagi by lowering the cost of NWI, without affecting the cost of the REMs.
skills and equipment didn't have a fixed cost across the board in n3. Unit type and faction had a part on it. I am sure that will continue in N4. Also, remotes will still be paying the same they did, while all of them will retain their base perks. Maybe a few ones will get extra things or will lose some of it, but I doubt it
Given how leveled skills have changed they dont need to do anything to fix the shock side of the program, though I doubt with the prevalence linked rems, the ignores cover mod part wont stick around either.
What similar troops are those? For most REMs, there are no similar troops and for Dakini you can compare them to Celestial Guard because it's easy and both can be recruited in ISS to see that Dakini whatever extra a REM might pay for anything easily disappears in the high optimization that REMs have going for them.
for example you can compare alguacile fordward observer to most observerbots, they both have very similar profile overall, and the differences are mainly the remote perks (remote presence, repeater, extra movement, and in that case, deactivator, sensor/satlock and sniffer as an extra, which are not very costly). 4 points for all the perks (1 extra for climbing plus in the nomad one for example).
I mean, besides that this is apples and oranges given their silhouette values, what's relevant to the discussion is that you can't isolate shock immunity from the equation. I'm personally fairly sure that Remote Presence is free on Remotes and HI like we know it is on TAGs, and I am personally doubting that having STR alters cost (at least on Su-Jian it doesn't seem to alter cost), but it's not like this is anything that I could possibly prove.
That's the opposite of other people's to the testing results. 12 Order Group 1 + 5 Order group 1 Alphastrikes are a pain to deal with. The total Order count/efficiency is not much different from N3, but you're missing 4 warm bodies to soak the turn one. Also depends a lot on which army you play against. 15 Order Vanilla Haqq wouldn't suddenly get harder to deal with if you were playing 15 Orders Aleph before and still do so now. 15 Order Vanilla Aleph is a lot harder to deal with if you were playing 20 Order Haqq before and are playing 15 Order Haqq now (using N3 armies). A lot of stuff is going to change. Looking at C1 Profiles and N4 previews, we're likely going to have to be creative to replace attrition oriented ARO solutions with kill oriented ARO solutions.
I think you are overthinking this a lot We had a Satellite tournament in march 2020, Team Tournament in november 2019 (and a whole lot of smaller events from september of 2019 exclusively in tac window) - if anything, I felt that the "alpha strike" capabilities are cut because there are not two full groups fueling good/cheap attack pieces. As a person throwing McMurrough on full order pool available to him every occasion I cant say that I encountered much difference in having to crash through the defensive line. There is a limit on how many eyes and bodies you can pack on one flank before they get impact templated with ease. Ikadrons are there, the pack of Helots is there, chain rifles covering corners are there, sacrificial camos are still there. Noctifier and TR Bot(s) and Mk2 and other ARO all stars are taken at the same rate in 15 and 15+ -2 chain rifles or -1 helot has not been a very dramatic change is what I am saying new profiles and rules will add lots of flavor but I dont expect tectonic shakeup in how the game is played
The solution is to have Shock Immunity cost extra on units with NWI, since there's an emergent benefit there. That would, of course, require CB to stop gaming its own points system.
The solution is to delete shock off everything that isn't explicitly attacking a target's biology through a pathway other than projectile/energy trauma. The game already has a mechanism for impacts inflicting such horrific damage that the target goes straight to dead, by either striking a vital region or inflicting major trauma. It's called inflicting one more wound than the target's wound attribute. Every weapon in the game is now capable of doing this with one shot to single wound troopers vs the critical success mechanic. For weapons that leave big holes no matter where they hit, there is either high damage, double action or explode to represent them adequately. Having shock represent called shots (Sniper rifle, marksmanship skill) is awful design. Are troopers equipped with sniper rifles incapable of inflicting non-lethal wounds to non vital organs? Of course not! This is bad design. I can do a called shot more reliably over irons than my dog can with a scoped sniper rifle, so called shots shouldn't be built into sniper rifles as shock. Also, when called shots and accuracy is represent through shock, it loses effectiveness against targets with STR for no reason. Does every unit with STR lack weak points? Of course not! This is bad design. Marksmanship 1 is a terrible idea. Being able to shoot accurately is already captured by ballistic skill. BLOAT! Called shots should be represented through increased critical chance. Increased critical chance is now possible in the game thanks to attributes over 20 and the hideously named Fatality skill. Shock meaning hollow points is dumb before anyone brings it up.
@the huanglong for thematic reasons. I'd agree with you, but talking purely balance, I'll stick to what I said before. Hollow points to take out cyborgs is a fun idea, but it should probably be differentiated from toxic ammo and 360 headshots, I agree.
Currently REMs also require a Hacker, TAG or other sunk cost/restriction to field, cannot be a Lieutenant, cannot go prone, cannot declare Cautious Movement and have -3 Dodge. Insert "but CA G:Mnemonica shenanigins". Any piece of scenery granting cover is a nice idea for the concept of gameplay. The ranges in Infinity are quite abstracted, anyway. 48 metres is hardly a challenge for an assault rifle and it makes more open boards (for those who don't have hundreds of dollars for fancy MDF terrain) viable.
Anyone I know has accress to heaps of the quite playable CB carboard stuff. Cost should never be an argument for open tables. Much prefer the new Cover System over the new one. Many people struggle a bit with geometry in 3D. Binary *there's cover between A and B? yes/no* is so much easier and avoids discussions. Prone REMs are great. Super salty about TAGs not getting a Prone state. S6->S3 and S7->S4 Prone would have been a thing of beauty to enable TAGs regardless of tables (unfortunately Maggie would have been left out).
