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Another new character, another new NWI + Shock Immunity

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. SpectralOwl

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    Really? Not gonna lie I've mostly been on the YJ and PanO sections, but people don't seem pleased about the NWI/SI combo on HI in particular for fluff reasons and on MI for devaluing HI. I'd honestly be happy to be wrong, but outside O12 I rarely see people being generally excited to see more of this particular combo.
     
  2. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Judging by all new units - no they didnt and dont care, it is still a method of cheating the points calculator and it is here to stay.
    The problematic warbands are fixed by 15 order limit and Mutts got the big nerf bat to the head.
     
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  3. Sedral

    Sedral Jīnshān Task Force Officier

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    For what it's worth, with the buff to medikit in N4 (if it's consistent with C1 that is), having 2 true wounds and decent PH might actually be relevant for healing purpose.
     
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  4. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    As is the case in N3: NWI + Shock Immune is a straight up upside from 2W on droptroops and skirmishers because it is tough to heal in midfield unless you have Tuareg/Tomcat/that haqq Tomcat and you leave no body for classifieds. On troopers that start in DZ/link with others it is a downside because you might want to heal them.
     
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  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    as far as I've seen, the main complain is for HI with 1W NWI but without shock inmunity. Those players started complaining against any unit in other factions that have NWI+SI
     
  6. SpectralOwl

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    That's mostly two people, and frankly quite well justified when talking about the Sombra and Crusher compared to the Zhencha and Liu Xing even if they haven't got the message about the N4 gap- price drops, Hacking changes or even full 2W on the Zhencha could change things. I can agree they should probably stop harping on about the same points though. EVAders seem to have been more met with cost-based salt from YJ vs. the Haidao. My usual complaint about NWI/SI being proliferated across all factions and classes is that it just makes NWI and HI both less special, and by the looks of things Hackable is finally getting a discount so the rest of my arguments have dried up in this area.
     
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  7. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I feel mentioned here, and I couldn't care less about the existence of SWI if:

    - NWI was a special skill reserved for artificial bodies or really special characters instead of a way to cheat their point system because it's not working well

    - Shock ammo wasn't literally everywhere

    -NWI + SI wasn't basically "2 wounds but cheaper LoL"?

    NWI + SI just devaluates HI and dilutes the differences between troop types and (along with some other skills) just makes the "point formula" seem like a big fat joke. If some skills or combinations are more effective than others for their cost, shouldn't they cost more?
     
    #127 Benkei, Sep 14, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  8. Kreslack

    Kreslack Unknown Ranger lead the way!

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    Just brainstroming some solutions to shock ammo that could be interesting, and keep shock immunity relevant and more optional.

    What if you made shock like fire ammo. You have to keep making additional saves until you pass one or you die. But, you also make it the opposite of AP, where you double your armor value (before cover) instead of half it. This keeps it fairly dangerous to lighter troops who might be killed in a single shot. But also makes shock less of an obvious go to option, but also fairly ineffective against heavier troops, and useless vs TAGs and Super Heavy Infantry.

    And Shock Immune troops with one or two wounds would have the option to take a single regular save with their immunity, or elect to forgo it and take one with higher odds of success but the risk you might have to take one or more additional saves if you botch it.

    This does give anyone that can get AP+Shock a pretty scary gun against light troops, but those are fairly rare. And I'm not sure if the marksmanship skill will be staying how it is. It also makes using marksmanship L1 if it does stick around more optional too.

    Basic snipers and shock marksman rifles will suffer, but they could then hand out more basic marksman rifles more often instead of making shock the default.
     
    #128 Kreslack, Sep 14, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Besides that the easiest fix for the situation is to remive shock from SMG and to replace it on the now common Red Fury, I think continuous damage makes more sense on Viral. Under the current Shock and Shock Immunity proliferation, Shock could possibly work as DA against units with Wound attribute.

    Shock really isn't a good ammo except in the few cases where it is crucial; against dogged Warbands and as an interesting choice against premium units with NWI. That's not much of an issue for weapons like SMG*, but most other weapons actually pay a bit for this ammo.


    * I don't actually mind SMG all that much, but I also don't think nerfing SMG makes much of a negative difference for most units with it - the primary quality of an SMG is its low cost and as long as you don't touch burst or cost it's gonna be mostly just fine.
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    N4 kinda made me give up asking for better balance.
    Improving the game as a whole will only go so far with N4, balance doesn't seem to be a focus. We're kind of looking at a free for all scenario where everything goes in the arena and the best remains standing at the end.

    As a result the only thing I can really do is to abuse the resulting framework to the maximum extent and minmax the hell out of it for now. With something like 7(? without NA2 Mercs) Sectorials to pick from, I'm probably going to be fine either way. Things are either going to get fixed or not, both are in my favor. Clear win win for me.

    There's going to be a set of requirements on how to build a functional N4 List the same way there was one for N3.
    Killing stuff and pushing buttons is going to change a fair bit, with the big thing is going to be how to address defense without hordes of cheap warm bodies.

    Taking troop X and being sad how it failed as a concept is just not going to result in anything for now and takes a backseat to the bigger picture from what we've seen so far. No one really knows how the core of them game shakes out until after we had some time with N4 Rules and Profiles AND the first ITS season for N4. Nothing is going to get fixed or changed till something like December or whenever the first N4 FAQ would be.

    Am I okay with that? No, ideally I want perfect balance and I would have liked it in N3. In reality however what we're going to get is as good as it gets, with CB trying their hardest. Crying over spilled milk before the first wave of post N4 changes hit in a couple months isn't going to achieve anything.
     
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  11. SpectralOwl

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    My experiences with it are much more pronounced, largely because I use Bolts a lot. Having the most discounted Shock gun in the game opt out of your (expensive!) defensive mechanic is annoying, especially as I heavily depend on an NWI Deva for Hacking defense, and it's still very vulnerable to the same gun. Having it be just AP or Shock would make it a hell of a lot nicer on the defender, who could at least pick a counter reliably.
     
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  12. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The Redfury (which they need to stop handing out to everyone) at least has the opportunity cost of costing SWC, where as other weapons that seem to cropping up on every new profile like the SMG and Shock Marksman rifle do not, and often allow for other desirable effects (like being super cheap). Also doesn't help that REMs can get it when ever they want currently, and shock is also on a lot of other tools in the game.

    Shock would be fine in its current iteration if it wasn't everywhere, and taking it was an actual choice to do so (like choosing to take AP or DA weapons) as opposed to something to just have incidentally when building your list.
     
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  13. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    My current N4 predictions for shock:

    - Less mines will be shock, with normal and AP being common.

    - SMG will lose shock.

    - Red furies will probably lose the SWC discount compared to other support weapons, except in certain cases and mostly due to other SWC decreasing.

    With all this NWI+shock immune I'm looking at Druze viral pistols in a new light :D
     
  14. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure Hellois confirmed on Facebook that SMGs are not losing shock.
     
  15. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Community: shock ammunition is too powerful, fix it

    CB: *shifts entire focus of the game to orient around more powerful multiwound or pseudo-multiwound high-ARM models, inherently devaluing shock as an ammunition*

    Community: no not like that
     
  17. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Eh, this is a bad oversimplification. Two things:

    • CB was creating a few profiles that shouldn't be hyper vulnerable to shock as it was making them too swingy in value. Patroclus is a pretty good example, he costs way, way, too much in points and SWC to go down like such a bitch to a mine or a poo covered knife. Lei Gong? Sure whatever, drop their cost a bit and drop the immunity it's not a huge deal. Ghazi or Kuang Shi eats shock and dies without dogged? Nobody cares, but big fuckin expensive elite Greeks? Probably need a different treatment.

    • They kept adding more and more and more shock, and it was showing up on really common spammy shit like SMGs which conflates the problems. It's less of an issue if you're adding shock but it's only turning up on a 70pt model, but when it's on something that's used to hyper optimise profiles like SMGs that means it tends to have a big board presence. You can tell someone to avoid or play around an Avatar or a Hac Tao. It's very hard to "play around" a board saturated with Helots carrying SMGs, let alone any other model in the army packing mines, marksmen rifles, REMs with supportware etc.
     
  18. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Except that it also devalues non immune dogged and NWI models, doctoring non multi wound wound pieces and makes expensive 1W non-immune pieces incredibly unattractive and unreliable options, especially when these options are going to become the core of armies going forward.

    It also makes people question why even have the pseudo HI style as opposed to just straight 2W (Yes I understand there is some nuance with Unconcious but its largely negligible.) and reduce the costs associated with it, and when it is applied to MI to not only cheat the points system but also ignore the counter play inherent to HI.


    But unfortunately it's something we are stuck with and need to adapt to regardless of how people feel about it.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Why would you assume this?
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We'll see if and what Supportware we will have. I still haven't seen any N4 examples of Supportware and with indications that REMs will lose their trade-offs, it's possible they'll tone down this aspect of hacking.
    Exactly this.

    It doesn't necessarily have to be a hard choice at list building, but it shouldn't be a choice that is done for you because you were selecting units based on entirely different and irrelevant qualities.

    I'd also posit that with Shock being so common, maybe NWI should be cheaper and Shock Immunity be more expensive? That might be a zero-sum game for units like Haidao, but for units like Patroclus that would matter.
     
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