I don't think anyone that is comparing is thinking that's going to be N3 fighting N4. Most that are comparing is for trying to find out about things that haven't come out yet. It's fun.
Just for context, you are arguing with people that have dealt with CB either outright forgetting to buff shit units when it has sectorial release, or releasing a "rework" that utterly failed to address the core problem with a garbage tier unit. In the case of the former it was the Guijia. Going into 3rd Offensive we had 3 TAGs that were considered to be problem children and were up for changes with their sectorials, the Guijia, Raicho, and the Seraph. The Seraph had its long running complaint of its Auxbot needing Super Jump to keep up fixed and granted it a disposable pogo shooting Auxbot. The Guijia and Raicho were carbon copies of each other sporting identical statlines and weaponry, IIRC the only difference was the Raicho cost like 3pts more because it carried the Morat rule. Basically, both TAGs were bland as fuck and needed new gear to justify costs and extra vulnerabilities over factional HI. The Raicho was granted new profiles including new equipment with the brand new Mine Dispenser which nothing else offered in the game besides the Rudras. The Guijia received no changes, In the case of the latter we had the Shang Ji, a unit that had been screaming for a total overhaul like the securitate forever. The crux of the problem came down to the Shang Ji having been supplanted in its own faction by newer, cheaper, Zuyong that did everything the Shang Ji did but for less. The Shang Ji carried no extra special rules, and despite having a different statline it was all in stats people didn't really care about enough like ARM, and their weaponry while different didn't really provide them with enough superiority because Zuyong carried good weapons themselves. Having a core linked Spitfire or HRL just wasn't good enough when Zuyong were already offering a core linked HMG on the same BS13 platform. So CB dropped a brand new super strong rule, Tactical Awareness, and put it on the Shang Ji. Which was great right up until they put it on the same sister profiles in the Zuyong, the Tinbot and SWC gunner profiles. So nothing changed and CB failed to fix the underlying issue of Shang Ji were just expensive Zuyongs. They did give them wildcard in IA, but then they attached a 1 per fireteam limitation which fucked everything up because now the only fireteam they could wildcard into that didn't contain Zuyong were Zhanshi. That might've been fine except now you couldn't support them with a Tinbot, and that also removed tinbot support from their KHD support that was also supposed to wildcard into the link with them. The Haidao was the only KHD in the entire army which didn't do the Shang Ji any favours either. So essentially the big reveal of Invicible Army meant the Shang Ji went from being solo attack pieces in Vanilla supplanted by cheaper but just as accurate Zuyongs to being linking attack pieces in fireteams supplanted by cheaper but just as accurate Zuyongs. That's basically why people are skeptical when you say "don't worry, buffs are coming, just wait." The unfortunate truth is CB sometimes drops the ball, and they have a historically bad case of butterfingers when it comes to Yu Jing. So seeing the Evaders in all their hyper streamlined optimised glory is triggering when you don't know if your stuff, particularly the stuff your faction is supposed to be king at, is getting the same treatment, and the company has a bad habit of fucking it up with your faction and buffing stuff.
Speaking mental health wise, best we don't rile ourselves up is all.. Edit: I do want to say before I get more likes about this, I'm not jamming at you, you are right about all this but like all those Stoic memes, best not to suffer twice or even once if our assumptions of CB dropping the ball are wrong. If they do, sure raise hell but just wait and then if we have to, then constructive criticism right out the gate might see results in 2 years instead of 5. I'm excited to see what happened to MAF and what kinds of fireteams every sectorial can bring.
Here I am just hoping we can get back to discussing the Nomad units in the Nomad subforum. Don’t see too many of us Nomad players complaining in the Yu Jing subforum... Out of curiosity, would MOV 6-2 even be a big benefit for Mobile Brigada, assuming they follow the directions ORCs went? Seems like the best use for MBs is linked with Algs, where the extra movement isn’t really meaningful. Yes, the main shooter could more easily reposition and still shoot with the second short skill, but that’s about all I’ve come up with so far.
Depends what happens with the Anaconda, since a MB can join the StarCo duo. Ideally if one goes up to 6-* both do, since that's the Brigada you most want in the midfield. Might be a nice point of distinction in QK as well if the MB go to 6-2 solo pieces while Jannisaries get 4-4 and a weapon upgrade, or for Vanilla Nomads- especially if they're the only ones with it, seeing as EVAders are 4-4 Nomads might get less access to newly-fast HI. Seconding/thirding/Nthing the thought that YJ specific topics belong in the YJ subforum. Power creep discussion here should only concern Nomads from an internal and competitive perspective.
Good point about the Anaconda duo in Starco. I don’t really see many people running solo vanilla HI like the MB but it certainly would be a bit better in that role with 6-2. Still not sure it’s necessary though, at least in CJC: it’s the link options that have made the MB worth taking there (and yes, Tsyklons are probably better for the points, but a Brigada HMG powered by Algs is a pretty efficient shooter).
In NCA I take a lone ORC Boarding Shotgun every now and then to punch through tight spaces on the board, or make a really resilient DZ guard/Datatracker. In N4 this is probably going to be even stronger because of the B2 DTW. The Brigada can do the same job, but has stiff competition from Hollow Men, Grrls and Jaguars from what we've seen so far- though I suspect both Jaguars and Hollow Men may see cost increases relative to Brigada, since the denesting of skills will stop Hollow Men from points-cheating Religious Troop/G:RP and the Frenzy discount probably being killed off for Jags and Grrls. The Brigada's edge is that it can be a LT with a shotgun. Not sure if it will be worth taking yet thanks to missing half the story, but basic HI with shotguns seem to have uses in N4 and definitely Code One.
I'm sort of into the Cheerkiller/Grenzer fireteam for this reason. I think I love the Grenzer sculpt just because it fits in with the Cheerkiller party. It's almost like that one Grenzer realised all her friends had become Cheerkillers and was like: "Fuck it, I'll get my missile launcher."
Exactly, as for competitiveness in fielding Grenz vs Wilds, I'm hoping Vanilla gets access to Haris and Duo more. Further accentuating individual player flavor.
Cool new nomad unit Have mods just COMPLETELY abandoned these forums so Triumph can throw around his whiny diarrhea everywhere outside YJ forum quarantine zone?
All for allowing mono-troop Duos and Haris in Vanilla. Sectorials keep their Cores and Rainbow Links. Vanilla gets to run something else then TAGs, Kriza Borac, Intruder, Spetznaz and Achilles as spearheads.
What he said wasn't crazy terrible, and also MODs have seen enough of this over the years, I think they learned just the right time to step in, plus I already replied to him the right way by not attacking him. Two more weeks, I'm fucking excited, but I'll be honest if I was CB and the PDFs were done, I'd release them now, now as them giving into the demands of the pete, but as a sort of mercy on human nature. I don't know how to better say that
my opinion about the new units Vostoks are one of the coolest things we have goot in years, in my opinion, in the same level as kriza. These dudes look as the durable bots tsyklons should have been. High arm, 2 str (ignore that s2, is a typo), albedo and one profile with ODD at 38 points. I want to try them as soon as possible Evaders make wildcats cry. This dudes seem a bit too cheap, maybe it is thanks to the new discounts on HI, not sure if they will get place in vainilla, but in CJC, I think we will see a lot of them sombras seem a bit too expensive. They look nice and interesting, maybe they are awesome in play!, but I have some doubts. If red fury SWC now is variable, then ok, but if not, we are again paying an SWC tax (but at 1,5 seems not so hard). They are getting compared to a N3 HI trooper that has a better deployment rule but is cheaper... which makes me think that the "arm will be cheaper, which will make HI and TAGs more appealing" was more of a "HI and TAGs will be cheaper". This also explains next unit... grenz... I mean, wildcats. The new grenzers...1 less of arm, n2 and total terrain, for loosing courage (which is more expensive than total terrain) and 1 point. I cannot see it as a good tradeoff. N2 for all profiles in vainilla is just "be expensive because potatos". In overall, they look just as a N3 unit, not an N4. As they are now, they will be as used as grenzers, which is not much...so we need to know their fireteam composition. Also, we need to see what will happen to grenzers due to this. And please, don't repeat falacies ignoring what people are talking about, other factions got units with more differences than grenzers/new wildcats and call them "equal" but never once I've seen those deffending the grenz/cat differences go then and explain them why those other units ere different. about the miniatures, I love those CK. The grenzer, well, I will convert that ML to other weapon because I allready have one, and I don't expect to field two and about a few things that have been told in the thread: Remember, it doesn't matter how good a new nomad unit is: someone will allways come to complain about it. Allways, it will not matter which unit we are talking about. It will not matter the good/bad results of our or their faction, the fact is that there will be allways complains about anything nomad, specially if it looks good. And I am affraid that this will end in a new nerf to something new for us again. Later we will see units in other factions that will make vostoks or evaders "bad", but none of those complainers will say anything while they will keep complaining about our units (as happened with hecklers/zulu cobra, old wildcats/last bolts profiles and so) I don't know if there is powercreep or not... I will say it when I see all N4 profiles. If everyone is getting powercreep, then nobody is getting powercreep. If N3 "worse tier" factions get better tools and they get on the same level as the N3 "top tier" factions, so every faction is at the same level of power, then it is not power creep, but balancing, and I hope CB is doing the later, we wil see when we have all profiles. But if only a few factions get new things, and those factions get not at the same level as top tier factions, but substitute them, then I will say that there is powercreep. Until then, I think we have to wait. but more on certain posts... First time nomads get this combination. First time in years nomads get anything that seems everyone else is also getting. They are two units, but now is this "a nomad thing"? A nomad thing was having more mobility than any other faction (n1 thanks to multiterrain and climbing plust on remotes), until in n2 nomad became the slowest faction because having more 10-5 troopers than anyone, and our mobility units remained the same in n3 while others got the 15-5 and more were getting superjump, climbing+ and/or multiterrain (and at late n3 nomads got a bit of superjump too). A nomad thing was having high number of cheap specialists, mid-field coverage and tricks, until everyone else got more number of cheap specialists, got mid field control units, and new units for nomad were mainly face-to-face dudes (except for one-time-tricker hecklers). A nomad thing was (and has been stated by CB staff over and over since before the first rulebook) remotes, yet other factoins have more avaiability in their sectorials, or have directly better remotes, or both. Now we are getting again mobility, jumping in the train of the new kind of trooper, and getting what seems better remotes I don't know. I am yet to figure how points work for N4. Evader seems a bit too cheap to me. Sombras on the other side, seem a bit too expensive compared to evaders. Sompras are buffed, more mobile and expensive prowlers (same role, similar tools, more durability), but if we want to compare them with zencha (which have similar tools, but have a bit different role in my opinion), sombras are more expensive while their deployment rule is worse and have no table control. And that's before N4 changes to zenchas, which can make them even cheaper (just remember su-jian, that beast got better, and even got some points decrease!) you are talking about the same complaints people talked about with the grenzer-wildcat problem, and some problems nomads have had to deal during n3. That is something CB need to address. But please, don't compare shangji with securitates... securitates remained as one of the worst units in the game since n1 until their revision mid-late n3, they remained unchanged and directly bad for more time than any other unit in the game. (they weren't revised at all in n2 or n3 changes as other units did, shan-ji included), while shanji came to replace a unit from the beggining, and got replaced at the end, but got more work by CB in overall. I am one of those sceptical dudes, so I mainly agree with you on the other things, but I have to say that at least, the new units look as a good way to shake nomad lists, but comparing it to old N3 profiles, from other faction, is pointless at this step. Unless you want we compare N4 su-jian or blue wolf with, for example N3 gecko (spoiler: gecko will loose against them in any comparative because N3). Lastly, when talking about guija and other TAGs, you could have also mentioned lizzard in there, which is still in the same position...just saying
Lizard's got a HGL, it's something even if it's boring- same spot the Squalo's in. Still wish it could be a little more reliable, but N4 cost cuts could be just the ticket for it, especially with Nomad midfield game covering several of a TAG's traditional weaknesses. The Sombra could be an especially good buddy, clearing what the Lizard can't inside the enemy's half of the table. I know it's not a thing Nomads traditionally get, but a taxed LT profile might be nice to help it see the board a bit more.
Your comparison to Zencha seems to purposefully gloss over that little detail called Shock Immunity and the fact Zencha are hackable, 2 pretty huge drawbacks, specially for units operating midfield; also Sombra gets better weapons and BTS 6. All of these for the same point value, even if Zencha gets a 5 point discount it's still way worse, but yes, poor Sombras won't be played because they are mediocre. And how are the Sombras "just Prowlers" from the moment they get 2 effective wounds? Lastly, I do sympathize with the amount of pretty useless units Nomads got, but Shang Ji didn't get changed and didn't replace anything, Shang Ji has been there since the start. And yes, poor Geckos suck, and I'm ok with Sombras being awesome MI (as they should be when Nomads supposedly are MI specialists) if they didn't get the beardy NWI/Si combo making them just better HI
I'm not saying that these problems don't exist in other factions, far from it, hell I made a thread roasting the exact same thing of expected rework receiving no rework when RMT came about and Zhayeden were inexplicably unchanged. I'm just explaining to Kesharq why his requests to trust CB are falling on dear ears.
Could your deaf ears be deaf elsewhere then? No one needs to hear you bitch about still-N3-YJ Profiles on the Nomad Forums for 3 pages. Haven't even seen the resident Yadu hater show up. If anyone cared you'd know by now.
There is a profile without it, and raicho has one with mines dispenser, which was not told in the previous post, so we all know what we were talking about. In a faction with so much SWC tax, that GL got an extra SWC tax on n3. But I am not saying it is not deserved (I think is one of the few justified SWC tax nomads had in N3), just explaining that lizzard is in the same possition then what is the problem? that is where I aim to. They are from different editions, with enough differences (someone in here justified that grenzers/new wildcats were enough different while being more similar that these 2 we are talking about) in role and build for them to not be compared as you try. One is a midfield (remember that infiltration is more expensive than AD1) zone control tool, the other is an advance deployed hitter with null zone control and more expensive. If we are to ignore things, we can do that, right? and who talked about mediocre unit or not beign played? I tried to reply honlestly to your questoin, don't go ad hominem with me. You are talking about a cheaper troop that has chances to get even cheaper, with better deployment, one little drawbacks (because we still have to see how painful can get hackable, but in n3 is not as hard as you think to justify so much discount) and the other paying (not enough maybe, I have to agree with that, shock inmunity in NWI is maybe too cheap in certain units) more than what those drawbacks seem to me. If you look at Evaders, maybe you might see some possibilities/reasons for zencha to get even cheaper than they are now, because I think we will both agree that, evaders in n3 would have never been so cheap
Oh, you can compare them all right, I'm just telling you if you are gonna compare them you can't leave out of the comparison all the huge drawbacks one of the units gets when compared to the other or its hardly a valid comparison, right? The moment you call not having SI with NWI and being hackable in a midfield role as "little drawbacks" it seems like you are just being dishonest, sorry Also, they have the same control tools and their roles as midfielders are pretty much the same except one can move freely because he doesn't care about hackers/repeaters nor the ever present Shock ammo and the other doesn't. And when you emphasize how Zencha is "the cheaper troop" like he is 10 points cheaper or something do you realize there is a 2 point differences except for the SMG which is 5 points but Sombra gets vastly superior ranges in its weapons on top of the other advantages? I mean, it's not like I'm comparing Sombra to a Zanshi here, we could even compare the Multi Sombra to a Multi DaoFei if you want and then the comparison is even more egregious. At the end the problem is the NWI/SI combo they seems to be giving out like candy. And sorry if you thought I was ad hominem-ing you, it was not my intention. Edit: if I look at EVAders and compare to Zuyong/Haidao I think a N4 Zuyong should be 18 points tops, but that's not gonna happen. Also I don't think Nomads should get better and cheaper HI rank and file when the fluff of another faction is all about how their main military advantage is having cheap rank and file HI, but I think the faction identity boat set sail so long ago it is in another planet by now. I just hope PanO gets smoke now and eveyy faction including Ariadna can access Hacker+ and pitchers
This is actually a really cool way to look at it. Not just playing some random squad of no-name, but something goofy like Battlefield's Bad Company. I'm sold!
