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Why not try to be more positive?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Redfaint, Sep 11, 2020.

  1. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    Like I cannot emphasize the selfishness on display here.

    Corregidor has, aside from TAGs, two units with more than one wound. They're getting two more -- not even real wounds! -- and somehow they're stepping on our toes?

    Nomads are at a riverbed dipping their toes into the water while we're already on the other side throwing rocks at them.

    Just be happy for someone. God.
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    I think people wish for amazing optimised profiles and forget yu Jing could fields 9 models for 53 points, in the kuang shi and Shaolin combo.
    Might be time to crack a beer and step away from the forums mate. I know exactly how you feel and it's not good for the soul
     
  3. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    I know this is bait, but it also presents an opportunity to expand upon things I didn't fully flesh out in my previous post. So I'm going to take it.

    So, of the eleven profiles native to Yu Jing that have NWI, I'm of the opinion that only three of those should actually keep NWI (two of which are Sun Tze). The rest should either be upgraded to proper 2W heavy infantry, or do without entirely. Most of these fall within the pseudo-HI category, which really doesn't have a reason to exist outside of gaming the point system, which has more to do with the pricing issues of elite troopers in general--an issue N4 hopefully aims to rectify. The NWI+SI combo isn't a problem because of some supposed lack of access to it on YJ's part. It's because it's poorly conceived and CB's design staff have more and more began to use it as a crutch for lazy design.

    I'm not going to go over each listed archetype you're attempting to convey here. The main things to take away here is that the HI distinction is a bad one to have. It presents no advantages, simply a vulnerability to hacking; coincidentally a facet of the game that Nomads run circles around Yu Jing in, who themselves don't have much of a hat in the race. There are some implicit perks, but they are not in any way guaranteed. Essentially, you have to look at the way Yu Jing fills in the roles you listed with the understanding that they come with the downside of extra vulnerabilities. Moreover, you're listing everything while failing to point out that not all of them are actually good. But the eternal failings of the Liu Xing and the dishonour he brings upon his alma mater are another thread.

    Regarding Kuang Shi, hopefully we're past the point of relying on an absolute requirement for them. Remember, half the point of N4 is reducing the dependence on cheap battery troopers after all. I for one will applaud not having to take a full compliment of them in every list.

    Of Nomads' 5 native HI troopers (discounting the Iguana), 4 of them are top of the line. Kriza Boracs are considered a top tier heavy infantry even after their ridiculous kit was so dominant that it forced CB to change the way suppressive fire worked.
    Riot Grrls are overwhelmingly efficient thanks to their frenzy discount, another mechanic that absolutely needs to be removed from the game. Thanks to it, they succeed where the new Wildcat profile will fail (that said, if I were a nomad player, I'd be disappointed with the direciton those guys are going in too, but that's a different topic). They are absolutely beastly.
    Taskmasters are freaking cool profiles. Fantastic at what they do and very unique. It's a well designed trooper and I see no problem here.
    Hollow Men, again like the Riot Grrls, are incredibly well optimized and game the system at every turn themselves.

    Really, the only one found wanting is the Mobile Brigada, who possess many of the same problems as some of Yu Jing's worst offenders, and similarly deserves the same sort of attention I'd like to see for them.

    But here's the thing, these new profiles we saw today aren't HI. Because them being HI would actively make them worse. They're medium infantry with all the implicit perks of heavy infantry but at a medium infantry price. In the case of the comparison between the Sombra and the Daofei, we already know what the Daofei will cost thanks to previous media releases. We know his price isn't going anywhere. And I've even expressed an understanding of that in the past, it makes sense for CB to want to keep the price tag of a kit so specifically potent as the Daofei's at a specific price. So why is a trooper with a toolkit so similar 15 points cheaper?

    But I'm not suggesting that the sky is falling here. I'm just calling a spade a spade. I'm more than willing to get enthusiastic when the situation calls for it. I hotly await a lot of the changes that N4 will bring to the game as a whole, I've constantly been of the position that White Banner (and the similarly awkwardly designed Winterfor) are middle-of-the-road translations of factions meant for a newer system meant to put them in a barely playable state before the new edition kicks them into proper gear. And as I've noted in my previous post, and in this one at present, I absolutely do think that vanilla Yu Jing is a strong and competent force that is fun to play. But there are developments being made in the conception of troopers for all factions that, as Corvus Belli has been presenting so far, I do not think look healthy for the state of the game and its design as a whole. And it's not just a Nomads thing. O-12 has plenty of offenders in that regard. As I've said, the problem in relation to Yu Jing is how they all seem to dip into the multitude of niches that Yu Jing's versatility is meant to play towards, combined with the context of Yu Jing's troublesome history.

    So you can keep calling me a petulant child and ignore what i'm actually saying, or you can try to understand that there's some nuance to the situation and some legitimate concern for problems both within and without Yu Jing that definitely could be handled better.
     
  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you wait to see the N4 YJ profiles before you complain? You might be really happy with them.
     
  5. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    While I appreciate the sentiment, given that people here got burned by IA turning out how it did with a couple of legimately great profiles held back by a mix of confusing profiles, and profiles that were expected to be heavily reworked that didn't actually get fixed, and some downright awful profiles you're probably making this comment to the wrong audience.

    That Guijia better have Super Jump btw.
     
  6. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    I can only express my opinion from an outsider perspective. How faction community seems to be in terms of positive/negative is usually reflection of just few vocal charismatic individuals. Personally I wouldn't envy other factions blind positiveness. Either way Yu-Jing is treated pretty unfair throughout the years. Loosing characters is one thing, but totally loosing a sectorial and thus some part of faction identity is pretty hard. More so what was once exclusive to Yu-Jing, what was supposed to be a new sectorial playstyle is now something everyone around gets. Worse - they get a better version. Everyone has S5 HIs now. There's an abundance of Shock+NWI HIs. Damn, Nomads just got a better Zencha. Every damned TAG is better than Guijia, which is an Iconic awesome looking model - screaming to being added to a list. All of this sugarcoated with CB's mockery, which is playful, but it grew on people and is not treated as such anymore.

    I don't know - I collect Yu-Jing for minis. I play some. I think that game-wise the faction is in a right spot now. Still - I totally get why the community is sour.
     
  7. SpectralOwl

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    @nazroth hit the nail on the head. I started Infinity a few months before Uprising with Yu Jing, grabbing a Starter Pack and spares to game with a small group of friends who'd found Infinity while looking for cheaper alternatives to 40K. It was great. I made a few new friends at the FLGS, got out of the house and spent hours looking at the wiki trying to figure out if we could do the Cool Thing- and we always could. I jumped onto the forums to lurk, and it was always a nice read. Then Uprising happened.

    I was in @Space Ranger 's position of having barely enough models to play, and worse, about a quarter of them were JSA. I woke up one sunny Thursday morning to set up a list for my game that evening and half my faction was gone. Jumped onto the forums, the official site, yep, JSA was gone now. I was crushed. I didn't have an actual income at that point, and now I couldn't play. I wound up trading away some secondhand Necrons I had to an interested friend in exchange for a starter pack for a new faction, one CB couldn't mess with because they hadn't done so for a whole edition... MRRF. That story aside, the forums were predictably pretty upset by this, many for the same reasons as me. On top of this, several of our most active and positive members migrated over to JSA, because Ninja and Samurai are Cool. Big complaints were our pool of two Characters in a setting with so much fluff potential, and the loss of the faction's CC supremacy- its actual, marketed selling point. Furthermore, almost everyone was pissed off that the book was apparently poorly written and planned to the point that it made Yu Jing leadership look like brain-damaged autists who are surprised that genocide might motivate people to fight back. Gutier's insistence that people who criticised his writing should read it, to "learn some new words", did not help, as did marketing the Shikami in State Empire orange only two weeks before it was taken out of the roster.

    This annoyed people so much that Uprising debate was still happening almost a year later when IA was teased. At this point I'd gotten together a Bakunin force, and was actively participating in several local tournaments, having a blast with the game. No matter how the forums are going, the FLGS will stay as the FLGS. The upcoming IA release had people excited for a new specialisation and a wave of fun fluff; Heavy Infantry were in, and we could stop being the Master of None Japanazis. I was checking in on the YJ forums pretty regularly, eager to start my first faction back up again. The debate raged on for upwards of a hundred pages, people analyzing every leaked clue to figure out how the impossible could be done: a force based purely around one of the most expensive archetypes in the game. There were naysayers, I even wound up muting someone out of sheer annoyance, but times were good and investment was at an all time high.

    The release pretty much killed Yu Jing. IA was sorta crap, filled with uninspired and unfluffy NWI troops, previously promised units weren't present, the book barely talked about Yu Jing and the Zhencha led to the biggest shitstorm the forums had seen since Uprising due to being a HI that died to Shock. Not even Ariadna had that, and it was made even worse because the similar Dart had Bioimmunity and was Unhackable to boot. This is where the current YJ attitude came from; total disappointment after the biggest letdown in the game's history, combined with a still confused faction identity and exacerbated by the fact that CB still hadn't updated the marketing (we're still the CC faction to them, somehow...). Several of the remaining positive voices became much less active, as did the subforum as a whole. I wound up not buying into IA thanks to its underwhelming release, and am now one of several local PanO guys with way too many REMs.

    Most recently, COVID has basically stopped actual play almost worldwide, leading to everyone with literally anything better to do to get off the forums. Those that remain don't have anything better to do than analyze and complain, because we're still missing too many pieces of the N4 puzzle to really talk about what we'll do with any new spoiled profiles. White Banner and Code One didn't really have too much going on for them, again largely due to COVID but also because White Banner isn't N3-complete and is also quite dull to talk about due to being mostly composed of pieces that play best solo, and were already in Vanilla.

    You can expect the quality of forum conversation to go up again after N4 is released and we can talk about things In Context, and even further once COVID is resolved and we start getting old and new players back into the game. It's at probably the lowest ebb now it's ever been, but a fair release in N4 would do a lot to get this place back to how it was in the Glory Days of One Week Before Uprising. If N4 comes out bad though, I really don't know if there will be any YJ players left.

    TL,DR: This discussion forum has been on a downhill slide for years, it used to be a great place but continued CB disappointment has driven people away. Wait for N4 to make any judgements, just a bit of attention to fluff and crunch could see YJ and its community rise again. Don't judge the whole community by the forums, anyone you can game with locally is almost certainly as good a person as you can find. Lastly, don't be afraid to buy into the faction and the community once N4 hits, because one more happy voice is never a bad thing, no matter how many or how few we've got.
     
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  8. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    One thing to keep in mind is that there are YJ players that collect both YJ and JSA. These players also have the disposable income for this that its a none issue for them.

    As for the positive voices leaving, some of them left the forum because the YJ forum is too negative and they don't want to deal with that. I find more positive YJ discussion on discord chats or an FLGS.
     
    #48 Death, Sep 12, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2020
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  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Hey, mate. Agree with all the points you've made, but if you could please avoid conflating being on the spectrum with "brain damage" or incompetent genocidal maniacs? That's not cool.
     
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  10. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, that seems to be the design policy for everybody in N4 now, not just PanO
     
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  11. SpectralOwl

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    I am actually on the spectrum myself, the reference to autists there was in relation to the extreme difficulty the disorder gives you "reading" people. Hence being surprised about folks defending themselves from a feared murder.
     
  12. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I'd really like to be positive, but once bitten, twice shy
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Bitten by what, exactly
     
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  14. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Number of profiles is a pretty poor point of comparison in INFINITY, where you can stack the same profile and stack orders into the same trooper.

    But me personally I don't have a problem with balance or who gets what toys for competitive reasons, as each army gets pumped full of slight variations of the same thing the game gets more balanced, but also more bland.

    The distinction between LI and MI was always meaningless, but now the distinction between MI and HI is hackable and the distinction between HI and TAGs is the ability to go prone.

    The dish has been slow cooked into oblivion. Salt's the only appreciable flavor left. Learn to appreciate the salt.
     
  15. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    I don’t believe you don’t actually know, so I can only deduce you’re trying to stir up a shitstorm. What puzzles me is why?
     
  16. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Just ignore him, don't feed the troll.
     
  17. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I know I'am here nothing more than a foreigner, never had played YuJing or some of his sectorials, but for that I will try to bring another point of view.

    I read a lot of complains about Invencible Army, which I found amazing. Every time I fought against it I was defeated, and when I commanded MO then the defeat was total. Yes, IA isn't perfect, but neither the other HI sectorial based, MO. If you look into the past you will see how CB has reworked MO about three times while N3, changin a lot of things, breaking some fixing others... Now you have fireteam full of Magistrales, now you don't, now you have it again but forget about the other... It isn't something ideal, not at all.


    While I'am really disagree with a lot of complains Yujing players made, I'am not with this. Uprising was something poorly executed. It could be something really cool, even for Yuijing players if something new it would come right away to replace the "insidious nipons". A little more information It had be nice, not one day Yujing has JSA profiles, the next day not anymore.

    I don't think CB were making some kind of experiment with IA. Not at all. To me the latest releases are really focused in the 15 troups cap. Most of them works pretty well with one 10 man group or 10+3 maybe 10+5. Of course, things working better outside your faction (dashat) aren't really nice (I have the same feeling with bolts in Foreign Company)

    I envy some of the "yujing" HI and hate others (transformers cat) XD

    About the main topic, probably is something as "if we have 10 people and 2 complain about of something, but from the 8 nobody says a thing, it looks like the 10 are complaining about". I think in reality"yujing" is not the "faction of complainers", not at all, it don't exists a thing like that. Is a thing only in "forums" or "internet", so don't pay much attention to that. If the conversation go well and smooth them remain, if not, leave. "The power is ours" :D
     
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  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I know what you think has bitten you

    But I am more making the point that the complaints about Uprising, IA and White Banner are not justified. If you believe that those were all terrible then yeah you're probably going to be disappointed by N4 and indeed by any balanced profiles for YJ.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Then why didn't you say that? That wouldn't have been taken as trolling.
     
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