1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

So how's everyone feeling?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    763
    Likes Received:
    1,781
    Honestly, I've basically been playing Tactical Window this whole time. My favorite Varuna list just needs to remove a Warcor to be legal in N4.
     
  2. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    211
    This is the classic "surprise-not-a-Noctifer".
     
  3. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    1,629
    Easier solve:
    Remove Military Orders and do Neoterra up proper, finally.

    Real-talk though:
    Order Sergeants could stand to be broken up into three distinctive units rather than just being the hamfisted blend they are now. I don't know what you would call them all, but there's definitely some cool ways to go.
     
  4. jfunkd

    jfunkd hard forum hittin Carlos
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    598
    Likes Received:
    948
    If CB ever gets Specialist Sergeants out of the silly corner they've been painted into, it could really open up MO options and build styles. It's absurd at this point that non-camo Sergeants cannot link with OS.
     
    #44 jfunkd, Sep 1, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
    Zsimbi and Lesh' like this.
  5. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    1,661
    Likes Received:
    1,629
    I genuinely think they forgot about Specialist Sergeants being a thing, concept-wise.
     
  6. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2017
    Messages:
    735
    Likes Received:
    441
    As for me, I feel that the changes might make the game a little bit more fun, for Pan-o? not sure right now. My group stop playing because of the pandemic, So! I have not been following things like I used to. I will need to be brought up to speed at some point.
     
  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    2,407
    Likes Received:
    4,864
    Alright that's going to be a long one :D
    (The force logout almost ate the whole post, thanks Google for saving my butt)
    Didn't have time to proof read yet - sorry for the verbal violence guys.
    No excuses anymore, hope that's somewhat coherent to read now.
    We don't know for sure how N4 shakes out but here's some counter arguments to those concerns:

    Impetuous Warbands bring more to the table then ever, they're 2 Orders each, which is great to expand your Order pool. The downside is you can't just take 4 for 20ish points and call it good anymore. On the plus side for running against Warbands you don't have to worry about the massive Smoke screen, Jammer net and a Chainrifle at every corner anymore. Mass expendable Warbands or waves of suicidal AVA8 Kuang Shi till something sticks as a means of offense is pretty much dead.
    Less Warbands also means less Smoke coverage, which in turn instantly makes capable ARO pieces better. That includes the ARM11 Multi HMG TAG or Hidden Deployment Reserve piece that can't be bypassed easily anymore if the Smoke chugger countering it has to walk across half the table to disable it. Cheap bodies were a solution to swamp and slow down the other side's Order pool to manageable levels and a pretty unexiting one. You didn't care if your Mutt or Warcor died in one Order, but you sure took the win if the Flashpulse won a FTF, if the Smoke ARO went down successfully if your Chainrifle did some damage or if you lucked out on the ARM roll or Pistol crit. Chances were your single digit pointcost troop just stopped something 10+ times more expensive in its tracks. And if the first attempt failed, there were 5 more waiting to die for an Order or earn multiple times their value by getting slightly lucky.
    If you take an N3 list, strip it down to 15 Orders and redistribute the remaining points that just won't work well. Especially if your list was leveraging a good number of Irregulars (i.e. a 8+2 and a 7+3 two Combat Group list). Those tend to beleveraged for Order sponge and harassment duty, upgrading your existing troops to better versions of their roles will leave you severely lacking in point defense as a result.
    I'm definitely reevaluating my approach on defenses for N4. Putting up a fight on defense is certainly going to remain vital to perform well overall. 3 Helots, a Warcor, a Techbee and a Linked Kamau were a straightforward and easy solution, but not a creative one. Running your Monks through Mines and Perimeter to clear them wasn't hard to do but very effective. The usual PH14 dude with a Dodge has something around >60% odds to live through a Mine and >70% to clear Perimeter. I probably bought a 20-30 point trooper to get midfield Mines/Perimeter on the board, not great if the easy counter comes in sets of 4 for the same points.
    From where I stand I used to look at 20 Orders +4-6 Impetuous on the top end of things. All of those could do damage and you had to throw enough spanners in the works until that massive pool ran out. Now I'm looking at 15+1-3, that's significantly more manageable.
    The other outliers would Factions that operated optimally in the 15-17 Order territory with a Warcor/Delegate/Techbee that won't be missed much. Looking at Aleph or Tohaa, I'm getting capped to 15 Regulars and lose the Warcor/Delegate. That's basically nothing at first glance, my Alphastrike isn't 11(9) Orders Achilles + 7(+1 flipping the Warcor Order with a Command Token) Orders Dart anymore. It's 11(9) Orders Achilles +5 Orders Dart, those 2(3) Orders missing are the ones that did the most work clearing pieces after sneaking into position though. Meaning I can't clear the way as effectively, won't be able to attack and place the last mine, recamo or SF at the end and can't manage that last additional piece I wanted to take out. From my experience those 2(3) Orders made all the difference in messing with things in the DZ for a group 2.

    Looking mostly at the value of stopping power, I'm looking forward to feel the impact.
    The last time something changed in that regard is when we gained FAT1 on TAGs. Which actually makes for 1-2 Orders better efficiency in a game where the TAG gets to do a lot. With changed Crits having diminishing returns against high armor a DAM13 Crit vs ARM 11 in Cover is a 15% chance down from 100% to make a dent, in comparison AP DAM16 still has almost 70%. We ran some test games with mostly Jotums, with the result that you probably shouldn't rely on HMGs and Spitfires as your primary means to overcome heavy armor anymore.
    With less Orders available and Crits not guaranteed to take even 1W Linetroopers down, you're killing 1W troops less easy and have less Orders to try with, combined it's noticeable that you're running out of Orders faster. Would recon that's similar to the impact fo FAT1 on a TAG, but army wide. The Crit change probably soaks 2-3 Orders per game (per side) assuming something like 5 Crits (per side) including CC.
    Looking forward to that one, Spotlight AROs offsetting MODs/adding to AROs has been interesting. Consider for a second that the Croc FO has Deployable Repeaters. It's not fun to roll dice vs a Kamau that hits you on 19s in Cover. PanO is better at leveraging this than anyone else. +1 BS has the hidden benefit that your shots high rolling are the second best thing after a Crit. BS15 also opens up to set up +6 Mods for BS21 with 0 chance to ever miss, +1 to all rolls and 10% Crit chance, a massive upgrade from BS20. Reaching >BS20 was previously limited to Core Linked Joan, Aquila and BS12+ Shotguns. On the offense Spotlight couldn't really compete with Carbonite or Oblivion. Not to mention that we basically never had an aggressive Hacking setup that could project a Hacking Area and a Hacker to deliver it in the same list with a TAG.
    The combination of bigger targets on average, +3 MOD and ARO label for Spotlight, more points to spend on support troops and better access to the Program we're looking at the potential to set up to enable our high BS troops to operate at new heights.
    As for Fugazi - they're Regular and do very useful stuff in numbers (Sniffer/Repeater coverage). We're likely gonna keep full AVA of them and just use the saved points to run something bigger elsewhere. A Dasyus instead of a Naga, Guard instead of Orc, or Cutter instead of a Squalo, assuming 100-150 points spend on the 2-3 most expensive troops in a PanO list Fugazi still have their excellent 24" +3 ARO + Mimetism, Repeater, being a REM for Classifieds and 6-6 Movement for Sniffer and Repeater delivery and to score a Zone with one warm body so your expensive dude can contest something else.
    Often couldn't fit one (or the second one) to edge out one more Order by any means in N3. Most of the time went for a 10-14 point Krakot, Fusilier, Regular, CSU in NCA/Vanilla with the occasional Auxilia FO as token Specialist.
    Assuming no changes G:Sync, Puppets, Antipodes and Posthumans all circumventing the body cap, Auxilia do exactly the same as before while the arguments for the competition matter less. Where you were running two Fusiliers a Warcor and a Techbee before you can still run 2 Auxilia to get the 4 bodies. Ideally they also get a point cheaper or BS12 with the N4 overhaul, they're somehow still 10 points without the Auxbot despite 1 worse BS. Best case they also stop being a 2 Profile N2 troop and get 4+ including other Auxbot variants during the eventual NCA rerelease.
    MMRs dropping in points and the MSV1 change certainly are a good thing for Quinn, at the same time I'm less inclined than ever to spend Orders on a B3 DAM13 gun. Less opportunity cost, more utility and Specialist tag definitely go a long way.
    Makes me wonder about ITS changes regarding to expected terrain/zone use. Guaranteed Low Visibility/Zero Visibility on all tables would be a massive argument in favor of any sort of MSV.
    Same man, same. Most fun Sectorial tom run. The ability to ARO and shoot through Smoke will be huge for Bagh Mari, Dart and the whole Sectorial once they become playable again. I keep thinking the Tik is going to lose his teeth as "just" DAM 16 isn't enough to frontally assault another TAG. Dunno, we might see the MO AP HMG Profile in SAA later this year, makes about zero sense to have less options in your home Sectorial when several TAGs (Squalo, Raicho, Scarface,...) got unique Profiles added there.
    The Kamau MSR loses a good chunk of offensive punch with DA getting downgraded to B1. Definitely looking at VIRDs heavy troops to pick up the slack here, Orcs, Patsy, Squalo and Cutter getting a good chunk cheaper with the revised formula should help in that regard. All-LI-VIRD is going to run into some problems since it relies on small caliber guns and the Kamau to do all the lifting. Nothing can really go toe to toe with a HI link or TAG aside from our heavy troops. The Shotgun change hurts the Croc a lot, having that DTW out to 24" at +0 was a devastating option against Links, additionally every shotty having a DTW is a problem for a squishy TO trooper without much support. The ZC looks fine to me. The Jammer was the standout, but we took him for mainly the Sensor and TF on top area denial with the additional potential to run him as secure Lt. He might find a lot of use as a secure backfield Lt to feed Patsy and projecting his kit through Sniffers. Changes to TF nonwithstanding the Combi can still shoot across the whole table on 3 10s. A lone trooper trying to assassinate him will have to deal with the Jammer and should be thoroughly discouraged from trying to chew through all charges.
    Breaker Rifle KHD, FO and Spitfire are still Camo capable of fighting from outside DTW range and more importantly Specialists with midfield anti armor punch. The Shock Marksman Rifle is about to be dirt cheap to max out AVA and Camo Marker counts with the Jammer potentially seeing less combat presence.
    You're right on the mark with Helots. Best guess is they'll transition, a Cutter list will still field 2-3 in group 2 to max the list out and add defenses for cheap. Regular lists will probably still include one, but not necessarily the cheapest one. The Red Fury and Sniper didn't see much table time in N3, the SMG is just that efficient. With that no longer being the main deciding factor... can definitely see running that Red Fury a lot.
    Suprise winners are EBs for me. AD is efficient movement - if there isn't someone watching every possible walk in point. The 15 cap opens gaps where something cheap and would have sat before. The EB is one of the few Shotguns with a secondary long range weapon and it's still going to be a template. Where every other AD troop took a good hit in regards to threat projection against Links, the EB still has it and gained a DTW to defend himself vs Skirmishers in ARO. Wild Parrot guy is about to get cheaper due to Combi+LSG combo finally getting adjusted, also gets the DTW for defense and ofc the Parrot increases in value with higher cost per trooper. Last but not least the Assault Hacker. Forward source for Spotlight, especially in tandem with a Croc FO you can just suddenly have the Repeater and the AHD on the table to ruin the other guy's day. I'm somewhat sure a Squalo HGL raining death on a spotlighted troop is going to be a thing. On top of my head a Squalo Zapper Lt + Squalo HGL 13 Order Group one and a Croc FO + EB AHD + two Helot + Warcor group two looks pretty tempting. Cherry on top is the D.E.P. looks as if it's going the way of the Dodo and its successor could be the good old Panzerfaust. Croc Repeater into Carbonite into 2 attempts of unopposed Panzerfaust or generally having 32" punch from the side of a table looks good.
    The linked Orc Feuerbach is going to be a serious contender for every Varuna list as well. Cheaper, can core Link and the potential to unload 6 AP ARM rolls in tandem with a little help from Spotlight should take care of any heavy troop.
    To one up you there, if the Locust ends up gaining Hidden Deployment we're going to have very potent midfield in between the AHD and the Grenade, Drop Bear, BSG to go along with it. If the Locust stays dead and we end up keeping Devas in their current state I'm nontheless very optimistic for them. I'd recon Squalo HGL or Squalo LT (thanks to Bolt CoC being easy to fit into 15 Orders) as well as Aquila Lt (same reason) and FTO are going to become staples alongside the Swiss. If the Aquila really drops a whole Order of magnitude in points as C1 suggests they're going to be very, very common even in pairs. Core Linked Specialist BS15 AP MMR is a menace to behold.
    I'd be bit scared for the Swiss, if the ML wasn't the deadliest ARO piece in the game. Here's hoping the Hacking changes will have a positive impact on the Swiss AHD's performance and viability (Multi Rifles also just got cheaper, but that is probably not quite enough, amazing news for a lot of Multirifle toting linkable HI options though).
    Ofc NCA also gets cheaper Orcs to fill our HMG needs and finally got a DTW on the BSG. Both Bolt/Orc + Aquila Haris are looking good right now. Haris as a whole finally gets to be in the spotlight as a means to increase efficiency with the 15 Order cap.
    15 Order Limit doesn't help their main problem which is the Lt situation and punch at HMG ranges. You could do a lot of good things with Seraphs, Magisters and cheaper basic HI, but not if 30-50 points of your list are doomed to be an expensive sitting duck and your CoC is the most expensive HI in the whole Sectorial. Revised Hacking and Stealth unnesting could also be another nail in their coffin. Saving grave is the MA buffs making them pretty deadly to everything including heavy armor across the board and the MO Tik probably being the better version of the best TAG in the game in N4 (we could start calling that variant "The Eduardo" in loving memory of Toni).
    Still banking on Locusts gaining HD. It's not possible in N3 but just makes sense for the whole of Sval's design. I feel we're missing big chunks of how Sval is intended to work at the moment, nothing quite clicks as a whole yet. Orcs getting a chunk cheaper and serving as Link anchors for Vargs is a first step. Uma's exorbitant pricetag actually gets more manageable with the limit, hopefully her double main armament will get a point revision. Infirmarers remains one of the worst additions to the game I've seen, somewhat hoping we're missing a piece of gear or Skill on him we haven't seen, same for Agnes and the Boyg, Gunnar probably also needs a massive pricecut to exist as more than a placeholder. Mediocre CC seems to be a lot more affordable in N4, although that alone salvages none of the troops in Sval that stand to benefit. Here's hoping we get a second Jotum kit, if the game needs more of something it's TAG Profiles, most of them are way too uninspired.

    Think you got too salty about VIRD. Their playstyle changing is probably a change for the better, Kamau Snipers, ZC Jammers and Helots together are just not fun to walk into that for most people. They're similar to Mutts + Daylami in that regard, which isn't good.
    N4 is looking great for PanO, certainly looks to change things in the Faction's favor. As someone who owns most of them we're bound to end up with a lot of exploring and excitement. The changes are big, even compared to the N2->N3 jump so if nothing else we'll at least be busy for quite a while to figure things out from scratch.
    I'm stoked that list composition, while more similar in Order count, will be on a whole new level of diversity. Entire troop categories, Link types and Profiles I wouldn't have touched in N3 are suddenly looking viable to be included. N3 kind of drove itself into a corner where everyone ran a slight variation the same few basic builds. N4 looks much more fun to just put stuff together and let things shake out on the table.
     
    #47 Teslarod, Sep 1, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    4,191
    @Teslarod hey it looks like you've copied that text in from a word editor - could you chuck some breaks in between paragraphs? It's pretty challenging to read as is.

    This is a very good point.

    I'd say you need to take him sometimes. The psychology of 'is there a noctifier/van zant/etc' needs proper mental scarring to be fully effective :P
     
    FlipOwl likes this.
  9. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    1,261
    Well, I'm going to answer as a "hard" MO player, even if it has been a long time since I have posted here about MO.

    About TW, I really think it's good news for MO, even if facing 20 orders lists from Nomads is doable, it leaves very few margin for mistakes, and even less when you're playing against a player as good as @cobraprime.
    15 orders in MO is completely accessible and very effective, even if the listbuilding isn't the easiest to get into as you need to rely more on remotes and I have to admit this is not something natural when you want to play MO. With only 15 slots available, your opponent won't have much orders at his disposal to harass your list from more than one angle and still take some objectives. Which should leave you in a better situation once your turn starts than what we know in N3.

    About Hacking, the changes are going to be pretty impacting. Since MO hacking department isn't very cost effective and lacks projection outside of fielding Peacemakers, I don't expect MO to rely on it as a dissuasive weapon. We still need to see the full picture but so far, I only see MO using hackers as a mean to defend against other hackers and hackable units, not to spotlight any unit crossing the middle of the table to be able make FtF harder for your opponent. On the other side, MO hackers are very competent fighters once you fight in combi range, so they won't be as much of a burden to deploy than a Fusilier hacker could be.

    I would notice also that Frenzy is a skill now. I really wonder what it will do as the three main orders have frenetic knights.

    About MO themselves, I hope we'll see Teutons getting 6-2 movement as their main thing. And seeing KoJ being a Wildcard, instead of the Santiagos. This would give Teutons their niche a the fast knights in FT (compared to the Montesa who always operates alone) while Hospitallers would be those specialised in long range firefights and not moving much and Santiagos would be the swiss army knife soldier, being able to acquire an objective, grabbing it and holding it while the rest of your force strikes elsewhere. I would love too to see Spec Sergeants being linkable but I wonder if it is a good thing to do balance-wise. MO struggling against negative vis-MODs and camo tokens is a weakness that has been here since the beginning. So, I wouldn't bet on MO getting better MSV2 in their FT than they have now. If this change, I would be surprised in the good way. Outside of that, I hope MO won't change that much. I know a lot of people don't like how they are now, because of the obvious HI lieutenant and a lot of things already said in a dozen of different topics, but I'm having real fun as they are now and they are in fact quite effective if you stop wanting to put squares into circles. They offer a very different gameplay compared to the other four sectorials and I think that's an excellent thing. If I want to play MO like I play ASA, SWF is here for this. They are the only PanO sectorial I know that offers the possibility to play really aggressively and I think this should be preserved for the PanO players who don't like to sit in their DZ most of the time with 60% of their list (points and model wise).
     
    Urobros and SpectralOwl like this.
  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    4,191
    Hey - where did we see this?
     
  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    1,261
    [​IMG]
     
    AdmiralJCJF and RobertShepherd like this.
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2018
    Messages:
    2,048
    Likes Received:
    4,191
    @Ayadan awesome mate, thanks :)
     
    chromedog and Ayadan like this.
  13. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2018
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    740
    I'm pretty stoked about the 15 unit limit. In the end of N3 i found myself building every list the exact same way:
    • adding a warcor + TechBee
    • adding full ava of Flash pulse bots
    • adding all the cheap shit i can find
    All my lists ended up being around 18 orders. And this was not limited to PanO. I found myself really leaving the models at home i bought into the faction for. And my lists ended up being rather boring to me. If i now cut down all my old lists to 14-15 orders i hope my list building will see some diversity.
     
  14. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2018
    Messages:
    3,071
    Likes Received:
    3,019
    And when they relax, THEN you Van Zant them :>
     
    colbrook and Urobros like this.
  15. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2019
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    211
    Exactly, and by varying the timing of when you deploy your surprise unit, you can maintain their insecurity indefinitely.

    I have always viewed the Tikbalang as the ultimate anti-infantry TAG. Perfect specs for assaulting the opponent's DZ and taking out soft targets in swathes. Climbing Plus helps it get into the back arc of TAGs to attack them out of cover in a pinch, but that is not its main job.
     
  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,790
    Likes Received:
    1,380
    Tikbalang is a great TAG, we will see how N4 suits for him. It becamme something better from N2 to N3... Is not the "killer" others TAGs are, but it do the job pretty well. Problem, with 6 Armour, even a combirifle can be dangeorus, and this is a good thing.
     
  17. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2018
    Messages:
    274
    Likes Received:
    428
    I'm reminded of a game where I was playing with OCF. Had the "nine order group" that had my opponent second guessing his moves, and worrying every time I said "no ARO" in response to him crossing a gap. He spent a few orders trying to bait me out. On Turn three, my TO token finally hit the board in the midfield and made an objective run.
     
    FlipOwl likes this.
  18. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,069
    Likes Received:
    4,435
    Illegal. Wallace only link with varagians in Kosmo...
     
  19. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    105
    Is he not a wildcard? But ok; then someone other. Kazakdoc? No Answer here; it will be to Offtopic. :)
     
  20. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    1,671
    hacking devices now has assault hacker programs? Remember the glory days of N2 when the Kamau hacker was one of Pano's best hackers? Well they are BACK BABY!

    Kamau HD + Orc tinbot A (has templates now from BSG). Wip 13 BTS 6 + Tinbot A hacker. Think of what this can do as a haris or a full 5 man link. Suddenly VIRD can into hacking.
     
    Goorie and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation