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Another new character, another new NWI + Shock Immunity

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah my hope for n4 was that shockimmune/nwi BS would dissappear and stuff would just get straight 2W as part of the streamlining. Doesn't look like that's gonna happen
     
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  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    another way of streamlining it could have been an atribute for the number of unconscious states: none, normal, remote presence, or inside the number of wounds/STR. For example:
    2/0 2 wounds, 0 inconscious states.
    1/1 1 wound, 1 inconscious state
    1/2 1 STR, 2 inconscious states (standard remote)
    2/2 2 STR, 2 inconscious states (presence remote HI like hollowmen)

    That way, they would only need to put shock inmunity where it is really needed.
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Can't help but feel that treating Shock and Shock Immunity like promotional lanyards at a convention is the opposite of what would be fun and interesting.
     
  4. SpectralOwl

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    I'm hoping they at least boost the Invincible Army's heavy infantry up to full 2W. The new discounts on stats will ideally make that affordable. There's a place for NWI/SI, but that place is ALEPH/O12, not Mercs/Everywhere.
     
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  5. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, after many years of play though I'm not really a fan of NWI and interaction with shock. I just don't think it really adds much, especially when there's so much shock ammo floating around. It's a chunk of extra interaction that takes up profile, rules and player head space that could easily be balanced about by getting rid of it by just going to 2W. When you've got a rebalance and re costing coming in with a new edition, it's a good opportunity to streamline
     
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  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    A lot of it stems from the ubiquity of shock ammo as a contributor to the problem. The most undercosted and overperforming weapon has it, and with it, any profile that wants to eek in some undeserved optimization gets it too. Multi ammo options on SMGs should probably go away, at least as a default. It's an extremely expensive option for rifles, it's absurd that SMGs get it for free.

    Fixing SMGs alone would go a long way to fixing the NWI+SI issue, albeit not entirely. I'd also argue that something should also be done to give a spitfire some leg up on the red fury, but at least that case isn't a power to cost gap that's breaking the game.

    If NWI is meant to justify the difference in its cost compared to two full wounds, it does need to have an exploitable weakness. It's a skill designed specifically to be vulnerable to shock, just like heavy infantry are meant to trade vulnerability to additional avenues of attack in exchange for a second full wou--wait a minute...

    Really, I'd see no issue with NWI if shock ammo was available to less troopers (and optimized profiles and list building didn't revolve around investing heavily in troopers that get it as an afterthought) and shock immunity was made mutually exclusive to it. Dogged+SI fills a niche, but NWI+SI is just purely bad design. Lastly, stop with this pseudo-HI bullshit and cost hacking-penalized troopers accordingly.
     
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  7. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 May his passage cleanse the world.

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    "He has 2 wounds but can't be healed by a doctor".
     
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  8. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    "Unless he wants to take one wound and hit the dirt to be healed by a doctor because the 2 wounds can't be healed bit is optional."
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Can be healed by a Doctor and doesn't have to hit the dirt to have it done.

    More like "Can still move and fight when unconscious and doesn't auto-die from shock ammo" (and of course the courageous part that you forget until it's relevant)
     
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  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    So is handing out Shock to everyone and their grandma.

    Remember when Shock was on CCWs, Sniper Rilfes, Mines, Koalas and Multirifles? With SMGs barely existing in the game on more than a hand full Profiles?

    Nowaday every second troop either has a Shock Marksman Rifle or SMG somewhere in its Profiles. Bad time to pay for NWI, also a bad time to try and use a Doctor on your LI ML.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, those were good times when a well planned premium unit would be an ace against a highly optimised NWI unit. Multi weapons are usually not very common and bringing units with them is typically a trade off, but SMGs and Red Fury are rarely much of a trade off and more the default.
     
  12. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Riiiight, I knew I was missing a gun.
    Forgot every second Spitfire is now a Red Fury too. Or troops have both a Spitfire and a Red Fury option for reasons.

    NWI/Dogged vs Shock is a bloody mess and I think the ship has sailed to fix it in N4.
    It should probably just work like Fire Ammunition against troops without Shock Immunity and NWI/Dogged. Easy fix.
     
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  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Don't forget every remote with a gun in the game, because having MML2 be able to be handed out at no appreciable cost was a good idea.,
     
  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    It's not like Shock was ever rare and NWI didn't have downsides, isn't it?
     
    #94 Teslarod, Sep 2, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    This makes so much more sense than what we have now. Basically, you have specialized, mostly defensive items that can shoot past NWI/Dogged, and everything else against which you can use your "still alive" state to keep on rampaging. And then some expensive choices (with only TAGs and "mini-TAG" Yan Huo being able to combine Shock with uncompromising active turn shooting with B4-5) that counter these rules, which in general feels like a common theme - there's often something, somewhere that doesn't have to brute force through rule X.

    You know what? I don't feel anything in this game will seriously break if SMGs, RFs, and REM buff just straight up lose Shock. It's not too late to just do that and reconsider those few Shock MMR that are in the game.

    And while we are talking about SMGs, there's another hippopotamus in the room very few a willing to pay attention to: aforementioned RFs. If linkable Frenzy, NWI+Shock Immunity and the like is "cheating" on point costs when you put it next to unlinkable Frenzy (or vanilla links) and 2W respectively, I'm definitely of the opinion that RF is the same when you put it next to Spitfires. What, someone actually thinks that 1 DAM is worth 1 SWC and a couple of points (as well as losing Shock, as it is right now)? That's even more laughable than Lasiqs with Fat1 that cost +0,5 SWC which HB has gotten.
     
  16. SpectralOwl

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    It's worse than that with the Red Fury; it gets an extra long 0 band compared to the Spitfire as well, and range is usually the most expensive part of the weapon. I guess the balancing factor is meant to be that the TAGs are really, really hard to hurt with one, but that's not much compensation given the price.
     
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  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, some difference along the lines of 30.5% versus 36% to deal 1 STR damage (used Mowang vs Squalo, all in good range and cover) doesn't seem like that much of a deal if we run a realistic number of tests. And that is assuming we stupidly shoot through cover and against average ARM TAG, meaning that realistically the difference will probably be less than that.
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    FAT1 is definititely useful in N3, not as useful as Mimetism, but it matters especially on troops who end up spending a lot of Orders like TAGs.
    In N4 the Red Fury is going to be pretty damn balanced, you notice DAM13, weight of dice only helps you win FTF, even a Crit only has 15% to put a wound on a TAG in Cover (ARM 11). It's a passive nerf to Spitfires, HMGs and especially Red Furies and SMGs, who were massively benefitting from N3 Crits to supplement their damage and make them universally deadly even against heavy armor.

    What I really, really don't like is that Mono still deletes stuff rather than being something like K1+EXP. Goes against the whole concept of N4, especially since Mono CCWs are the new SMGs and everyone gets to have one recently.
     
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    That one definitely is balanced by the fact that those things are an utter pain to get into position. Even Shinobu usually takes about three orders to employ the Monofilament CCW, never mind scrubs like Hawkwood that have to walk across the whole board. It's annoying from a fluff perspective, but honestly I think the new PARA CCWs are going to be much, much more annoying mechanically since CC specialists who get them are practically never going to fail their roll, and get a free hit on at least the next attack. Goddamn Mehmut puts Shinobu on 16s judging by the Code One Martial Arts table, never mind poor TAGs which physically can't escape or win without a lucky crit if he gets base-to-base. He's actually the character I hope loses NWI in N4 the most, just so DTWs can at least stop him.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Mehmut is a paper tiger. Just shock him to death. He's one of few new NWI without Shock Immunity, plus his only ranged defence is his decent BS of 13.

    Honestly, I think you'll have more problems dealing with melee monsters who can't push MODs quite as high, but who are more cost effective, have smoke, or simply better at playing the ranged game. Shaolin, Liang Kai, Myrmidon Officer, Miyamoto, KoJ, Achilles, Blue Wolf, etc. Take your pick.
     
    SpectralOwl likes this.
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