Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

I think it doesn't really take this discussion any further to discuss things on the basis of "Infinity is meant to be X"...if someone thinks Infinity is a skirmish game, that's fine. But that's opinion...there is only one thing that determines how Infinity is played: it's actual design and the inherent optimum build that people minmax towards to. We can very easily determine how Infinity "was supposed" to be played if we consider how it actually was played: round about 15 units on average...that has even been the case up till now. Fluff or feeligs just add up to a good gaming system...at the core game design determines everything and everything else just works as decoration...making it a complete picture and thus an appealing game.

Terms like "covert ops" or anything leaves so much room for individual interpretation...this doesn't help anyone as a reference to how a game is supposed to be designed. For me personally, I wouldn't consider any spec ops force "covert" as long as not every weapon is at least silenced and each trooper camouflaged. This deosn't necessarily translate into a playable, fun and diverse game system.

The same goes how factions are designed and how they can be played most effectively...you could play Haqq HI in N2...but that definitely wasn't their sweet spot to build upon. You cold spam ALEPH in N2 (to a certain degree) but that wasn't their strenght either. Latest additions have changed that drastically but still the same goes for factions with an overall less expensive troop roster now with N4 on the horizon. Sure, they can be played a certain way and that's basically not impossible, some people probably already played successfully that way, the average numbers still indicate that most people find certain builds more effective. That's not due to people not playing "how faction X is supposed to be played" but rather that's where the faction design leads players to. Each faction has a specific way to get it's set of assets on the table. Some come in skill stacked packages, others need "larger" numbers of only megerly skilled troops to get the same amount of skills and stats...that's what we are paying points for: skills and stats.

Thus I can still the argument that certain faction designs might be more affected by a general hard cap than others...saying that some players might have to adjust more than others...IF N4 doesn't overhaul profiles in a wider sweep.

 

Is this based on information from CB?

 

I think it is just based on the overall effectiveness of cheap units in USARF vs expensive ones
Dunno about designed because USARF has a lot of expensive units - it is more a case of failing to deliver good options for not-spammy lists because premium link options, droptroops and quality solo pieces are kinda subpar compared to throwing hardcases and infiltrating grunts everywhere.
Unknown Ranger and Wild Bill are no Vet Kazak and Marauders are no Frontoviks

 

As you say marauders are not frontoviks and the ranger is not a veteran but that's ok when you consider the difference in the amount of orders for each sectorial. In my opinion if you give frontoviks and vets to USARF without the 15 cap you will end up with an overpowered TAK+

But marauders are not bad troops right now. In fact they feel useful because they bring some nice tools to your list to support the rest of units. All the troops except the ukr and maybe minutemen (the new link options helped a lot) not only can work together quite nicely but they are designed to do so.

Additionally filling your list of grunts with infiltration is not reliable at all. It's like throwing a coin in the air but with the odds against you.
You will win some matches with them but you will loose more than you win.

 

The 15 slot limit levels the playing field for everyone. It's quite the contrary to what people claim. 20 Orders didn't need help. 10 Orders did. There's always something to do with your points assuming the pointformula works. If it's not more raw power, it's better Order Efficiency on both offense and defense, by allowing mass Infiltrators, Marker States, Perimeter or Minelayers.
If the status quo is anything it is imbalanced because some armies can run 20 Orders and fuel high end troops better than others. The mentioned USARF definitely gets the short end of the stick. Their low are Grunts which aren't cheap but baseline, their high end is questionable. Compared to other Ariadna Secotrials who get cheaper low end and better top end USARF should be winning in terms of midrange troops, but arguably has the worse choices here as well compared to Caterans, Chasseurs, Streloks, SAS and other Sectorial's big Dog variants. About the only thing USARF has going for them are Grunt HFTs with Inferor Infiltration. Ask yourself how many USARF troops you see in Vanilla, who aren't just to get more of a troop type after reaching max AVA on a better choice (i.e. Chasseurs).

As far as Ariadna goes, every other Sectorial can easily upgrade to higher impact choices to compensate. Warbands to Dog variants for the mainly impacted troop type, Fillers to Tankhunters, Vet Kazaks, Spetznaz, SAS, Greys, Scouts

A fixed split of 8+8, 7+7, 8+6 etc ends up somewhat clunky compared to a 15 total max 10 per Combat group. Mostly would require more rules since you would probably still want to allow 10 when limited to a single Combat group. Would likely alleviate the "Achilles Rambo" problem, but seems to contradict the easier rules and more streamlining goal for N4.

Nah man Dart is fine, one of the few troops who can pull off an SMG as main armament in her price category, not a Specialist and an expensive kit that only works because she has an SMG. I'd play her with a Combi for almist 40 points but it would be a rarity. As it stands she competes with Camo and TO with different loadouts where she is available. People claiming SMGs are awesome mainarmaments clearly missed the memo on them being bad (but cheap) versions of Multirifles... and Multirifles aren't exactly the most beloved kind of weapon. Would you really play a MR Dart for +9 points in N3?
The Kappa Hacker or Libertos are the most egregious examples where the flat point reduction is completely wack compared to the troop's base cost and purpose.

 

USARF need a premium skirmisher to compete in Tac Window imo; when I've tried playing them on TTS I missed an option of taking expensive but effective camo units - and, of course they need a minelayer, not just a living mine in Hardcase.

 

4 foxtrots
2 hardcases

8 + however many minelayer mines you have

Add infiltrating HFT grunts to taste

FD marauder haris who can now respond to smoke to a degree

Van Zant in the rear.

...am I missing something or is that now considered bad?

 

Grunts are excellent link troops and don't feel expensive inside USARF.

I usually use mavericks, t2 sniper blackjacks, foxtrots, van zant, and sometimes hard cases and desperadoes that's more than a healthy amount of USARF troops in vanilla.
I can't see how foxtrots are bad in any way when they are the single cheapest regular camo infiltrator specialist of the game, they are specialized to do their job and that's ok. It's common in the sectorial and the troops that are not specialized are the ones that have problems fitting in like the ranger with his toolbox approach.

You are not expected to use one single troop to solve problems, you have to combine them like burning a TO with a flamethrower and then using the maverick or marauder with the visor lvl1 to finish it off.
That's why at first glance the devil dog looks underwhelming compared to dog warriors. The devil dogs are not meant to make a rampage their job is to spot or deal with TO and camo troops.

That's why USARF has 15+ orders, to use and combine your troops to do what other armies can do with one single troop, and that's a good thing because it's different and the game desperately needs armies that don't feel like small variations of existing armies.

And each of those changes will bring them closer to TAK but with a different color.
USARF should be able to work without using a lot of camo like now.

 

I'm not USAriadna specialist but I played a little bit with army, and isn't somthing like that interesting and balanced to play ?

USAriadna Ranger Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 9 1 2
GRUNT Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
GRUNT Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
GRUNT Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
WILD BILL Rifle / 2 MULTI Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27)
MINUTEMAN AP HMG / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
DEVIL DOG Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades + 1 K-9 Antipode / AP Heavy Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 32)
K-9 ANTIPODE AP CCW. (7)
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
MAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
AIRBORNE RANGER (Forward Observer) Submachine Gun / Pistol, AP CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 21)

GROUP 2 5
MARAUDER Molotok / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
MARAUDER (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
MARAUDER Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)
GRUNT (Inferior Infiltration) Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 11)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

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I love there is no crappy useless cheerleaders here. I like it when every model has a reason to be here outside of providing orders and will potentially see some action during the game.
You could do a lot of variation, adding a marverick here, or a black jack, or the Unknown ranger and so on.
I actually had trouble to fit all the guys I wanted into this list. Ended fitting only 14 people a lot of time.

EDIT : tried to do the same with french. My first go to is this but you could go for mirage or the Anaconda.

Force de Réponse Rapide Merovingienne
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10
MOBLOT (Sapper) HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 31)
MOBLOT (CH: Mimetism) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
MOBLOT (CH: Mimetism) Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
ALGUACIL Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
MÉTRO Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
BRIGADIER BRUANT Lieutenant Molotok, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)

GROUP 2 5
CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
LOUP-GAROU (Fireteam: Haris) Viral Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
LOUP-GAROU Boarding Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
LOUP-GAROU Viral Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
ZOUAVE (Sapper) HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)

6 SWC | 300 Points

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Edit 2 : here is something I would run with Mirage 5

Force de Réponse Rapide Merovingienne
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 9 1 1
MÉTRO Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
MÉTRO Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
MÉTRO Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
BRIGADIER BRUANT Molotok, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
EQUIPE MIRAGE-5 . (2 | 71)
MARGOT AP Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (37)
DUROC 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP CC Weapon. (34)
CHASSEUR (Forward Observer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
MOBLOT (Infiltration) Rifle, Light Shotgun E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)

GROUP 2 5
MOBLOT (Infiltration) Rifle, Light Shotgun E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
CHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
ZOUAVE (Sapper) Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
ZOUAVE Paramedic (MediKit) Rifle, D.E.P. / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

I'm glad to hear Spiral's doing well.

When I say 'gimmick' with regards to the Steel Phalanx and Triad bit, I'm referring less to their power level and more that it's a rule that could easily be translated to other factions and go a long way.

Link Teams having caps is and always will be weird. It's also weird that factions which have Haris and/or mixed fireteams don't have access to Triads.
I'm all for upping access of the vanilla Tohaa to the other fireteams. It was always implied/hinted at that the 'Old Model Army' or whatever their Sectorial was going to be would introduce Core Fireteams to them.

 

I think you've missed the "premium skirmisher" bit.

The Chasseur and Scout have always been, seemingly, the gold standard of Ariadna skirmishers. The Foxtrot has always just been kinda there.
The Hardcase, IMO, feels like it should have been a Warband or Light Infantry model not a Skirmisher.
I genuinely don't know what/how to do a more interesting unit but the Foxtrot just feels bland in comparison to everyone else--and matters aren't helped by a lack of models.

Personal statement on my end though is that it's goofy that the 'defensively oriented' sectorial(USARF) doesn't have a single Minelayer profile. TAK has Scouts with E/Maulers having Minelayer. There's a Chasseur with Minelayer. TAK also gets a Mine Dispenser on a Bike in the form of the Dynamo.

Add some more utility and lockdown control to the Blackjack. Give that sucker a Mine Dispenser and AP Mines.

 

Ariadna
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 1
SCOUT (Minelayer) Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)

GROUP 2 1 1
FOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
HARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

0.5 SWC | 60 Points

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There you have your minelayer and one extra free camo + irregular order. (Your mine is the hardcase)

Foxtrots are not bland, foxtrots are amazingly cheap.

 

But that's not what people *want* and *have* been playing! They *HAVE* to be able to keep using the tools they want in the way they want for it to be valid. *ANY* change means it's invalid and they don't have to even look at it.

 

some people are assuming that all factions are balanced at the moment, and the data we have seen says otherwise. If factions are not balanced, and (this is most important) the most affected factions are not the ones at the top, then we cannot use that argument. There is correlation between number or troops and winrate, but if some factions don't follow that (high number, low winrate), it could mean that they are struggling, so a forced cap will punish them more than others. Actually, only the factions that were dessigned to be played with numbers will be punished with this rule.

We will see how factions change when we have the new profiles. I just hope CB stops focusing on the same 3-4 factions and start giving more and deeper work to the remaining ones

 

Nope, bland.

Compare TAK Scouts(which for whatever reason are a thing in a Sectorial filthy with tricksy profiles) to Foxtrots:
BSG, AP Mine Foxtrot is 0 SWC 19 pts.
Scout with BSG, D-Charges, AP Mines is 0 SWC 25pts. 6 pts difference.
Those 6 pts buy you 1 point of BS, 1 point of ARM, and Marksmanship L1 plus D-Charges.
Compare a Foxtrot w/ Sniper Rifle, AP Mines @ 0,5 SWC 24 pts to a Scout with AP Sniper Rifle, AP Mines for 1 SWC 29 pts.
Again, within spitting distance (5 pts this time!) nets you an AP Sniper Rifle and the aforementioned stat differences.

Cheap isn't a playable characteristic. It's a list building characteristic, and as we've established in this thread? It's apparently something people have a bug up their ass about.

 

Yes and scouts are almost never used in TAK because "muh too expensive" given the obscene creation that is the strelok.

Source: filthy minmax TAK user at tourneys

 

Streloks are "only" AVA 4, there is room for more skirmishers

I like emauler minelayer Scout, it is +2 markers to the filthy midfield shell game of TAK and he can snipe things from above thanks to 8-32 +3 range of ojotnik

 

This only works if you assume that CB's design decision are perfect and they have some kind of omniscient knowledge of how to make the game operate the way they want it to. It's silly of course, they're humans, they make mistake, which means that any optimum towards which the game move might very well be the result of a flaw in the game design being exploited by the players.

 

One thing I'm curious about... Did the USAriadna Army pack come with one of those "suggested" 300 point lists to expand into? It's not much to go off of but it might be at least somewhat indicative of how CB might expect them to be played.

 

Ok, my hope is as a skirmish game it moves to where 8-9 dudes is viable for hyper-elite and 15 is spam.