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Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by redeemer, Aug 16, 2020.

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is the 15 unit limit for ITS rule a good change or not

  1. yes

    147 vote(s)
    81.2%
  2. no

    34 vote(s)
    18.8%
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  1. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I think it is a good design decision for several reasons. Chief among these is the fact that it tells us the parameters around which CB are focusing their efforts to balance the game.

    Disclaimer: My primary army is CHA and my gut reaction was panic! However, I see a lot of merit, and actually believe it will enrich the game environment in the long run. List building with CHA becomes much more dynamic when I know I won’t have to deal with the 20 order midfield-saturation-plus-warbands shenanigans i regularly faced from TAK and vanilla Ariadna.
     
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  2. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    It always felt fine to me with vanilla Haqq. Group 2 is just 4 mutts and a Kum biker all of whom will lay down smoke. Most of them will succumb to the plague, but that's fine. Group 1 includes 2 krakots and Kendrat for order efficiency. Lot of FD1 (krakots, Kendrat, Mukhtars, Saladin) so you get some units passing their rolls and starting a little closer to the safe zone. The Mukhtars give you some extra speed as well (I think I may have put Tarik in there too instead of Saladin, for the same reason). You also need max cheap orders like baggage bots, to stay behind and die after fueling your escape.

    Sectorials probably still have the advantage with their link teams, but they have to be willing to break the team to spread everyone out once they get to the midfield. Otherwise they just leave clumps of targets.

    Edit: this is re biotechvore, not the 15-order cap.
     
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  3. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
    Warcor

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    I've had my ass handed to me by a Haqq list following this same principle. Guy had 8 or so models with infiltration or impersonation. Pretty much half his list started the game out of the danger zone, and the other half was mutts, tariq and some support.

    I ran a vanilla combined list that was 2 infiltrators and several 6-6 or 6-4 move models in a Limited Insertion Format in Biotechvore once. It was pretty sucessful against someone playing USARF with 16 orders. Although the fact I had first move and had both a Raicho and Sheskiin to open the way for the rest of the troops really helped too.
     
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  4. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    Even if limiting to 15 orders isn't the ideal option in the game design vacuum (I'm not convinced that it is yet), all available data seems to show that way more people enjoy playing when they don't have to see 16+ order lists. More people having fun means more people playing, which honestly should be the end goal.
     
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  5. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
    CB Staff

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    i think we did.
     
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  6. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    Very much this. I know it is selfish of me, but I don't like large lists, whether playing them or playing against them, so I'm delighted with the change. Now I don't have to insist for one game out of three to be LI just to suit my taste (my opponents are really nice people).

    And there's a lot to be said for Infinity to be dynamic. I completely understand those who complain because they made purchases towards a specific list that is to some extent not playable anymore. Generally speaking, I find that a bad thing, I don't want Infinity to turn into Magic the Gathering, with constant purchases forced upon me just to "keep up". But there is a need for some leeway here: a mini game is not a boardgame, if it is static, it dies.

    Also, restriction breeds creativity. 15 units won't be a restriction for me, but I have no doubt and will be interested in seing what players do with this. And if somehow this turns out to be a killer for some factions, well, either those factions will get modified or the rule will be. As in the meanwhile, people still get to play whatever way they want in their friendly games, I don't see why there should be much angst.
     
    #326 Alfy, Aug 24, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  7. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest Day in, Day out. Day in, Day out. Day in, DAY OUT

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    Well, what a great start to the week, with an epic bit of trolling from HellLois.

    Careful there, my good sir. If Bostria finds out that you are trolling the fanatic peat, who knows what he may do. Trolling us is his job, and his passion.

    Anyway, 'fix' when referring to canines generally means castrating them. Those poor antipodes...
     
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  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Detalhes?
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well guys, what wasn't great or broken in N3 for you?
    To me it was this stuff:
    1. Spam. You spam, bank on getting lucky matchups or go home.
    2. In extension, cheap troops punching above their weight class, most prominently Flash Pulse and Warbands with DTWs+Smoke.
    3. 10 Orders one dude. Per Combat group. Running multiple heavier troops was workable against certain matchups, durability/pointcost was a bit of a problem. 3 Orcs aren't really more durable or lethal than Achilles but cost twice as much somehow.
    4. Camo - best Skill in the game. Unhindered Move-Move for an Order is still a better version of Cautious Movement. BS Mods are always nice and so is Surprise Shot, Stealth and Private Information hiding your trooper and his kit.
    5. Dedicated CC works if you get to beat up expensive troops, unfortunately doesn't work so well with a screen of bodies in the way, possibly including CC capable or Chainrifle sporting Warbands for asymetric trades.
    6. A whole bunch of TAGs. Getting one shot by a 5-20 point idiot with an E/M Weapon kinda sucks if you're the Avatar. Crits devalue your expensive armor and there's enough stuff that can punch through it the old fashioned way on top. Cheap CC mooks with decent crit value can take out most TAGs in N3. As someone who's frequently running TAGs, they still needed an S3/S4 Prone state to cope with table layouts. Being cheaper, ARM being worth a damn and accessible Partial Cover makes them way easier to run in N4 in either case.
    7. Basic troops above Order Monkey level. Wildcats, Mobile Brigada, Orcs, Bolts, most older linkable MI and HI without frills ran into that problem.
    8. Mixed Links and Wildcard powercreep. How to make an Orc good? Get him 5 man boni for 40 points, rather than 150. The ability to mix and match much less restricted than at the beginning of N3 made links more viable, but less of the choice that exist are useful to begin with and overshadowed by the stand outs. Have yet to see a Yadu or Grenzer Core on the table.
    9. Loss of Lieutenant management. You're either a Faction who has a way to secure your Lt, (Camo, good CoC, easily available choice for shell games) or you're not. Even if you're not as screwed as Onyx right off the bat, Tohaa with a Symbio armor + Mate Lt and 2 inexpensive CoCs are worlds apart from Corregidor running 3 Alguaciles (and paying a SWC for the privilege) and hoping for the best.
    10. Weapon diversity. Burst is king, you didn't really need a weapon more efficient at dealing with armor than a HMG or Spitfire.
    11. Duo and Haris. There's like one Duo and three Haris in the game I'd put on a table in ITS. Compared to Core/Triad/Enomotarchos that's pretty sad.

    That's not everything, but the stuff I would have liked to see overhauled across editions.

    Locking slots at 15 gets rid of 5+ of the overly efficient asymetric trading pieces per list. Those usually ran in between 28 and 50ish points that can be redistributed.
    Previously suboptmial choices, i.e to run a MI rather than 2 Cheerleaders for the same price or a HI Lt + subpar CoC rather than just the same HI as non Lt and 3 Linetroopers for shellgames, are better now. You can invest more points into better Order efficiency outside of combat and basic button pushing rather than flat out economy. Midrange troops (i.e. better Specialists, more secure Lts, CoC options, different Hacking devices, ...), backup gunners to elite gunners, another troop or two of midfield presence, there's a real choice what to do with those points now.
    Before, I was usually debating if I could afford to spare 4 points for the upgrade to an Engineer or Doctor and if that upgrade would mess with having at least 3 potential Lt options on the table.
    Minmaxed listbuilding was pretty straightforward and not a lot of fun to be honest. I'm stoked that it's no longer possible to stack a list with the bare minimum required. No more single minded focus to steamroll kills and Objectives, keep that bare minimum alive with token AROs and disposable bodies while trying to take out the key pieces in your opponent's 2 groups.
    Alternative ways to increase Order efficiency finally can do what they're supposed to do, like Duo/Haris, a higher tier Specialist (can't remember the last time a saw a Sophotect in Aleph) or active use of the Lt Order (Strategos/NCO/CoC).
    Don't think I quite like the way Camo got "fixed". The Impact Template of Shotguns was a real problem (easy to use and very efficient), but I'm not so sure if I like every BSG and LSG turning into a DTW.
    Camo troops with Shotguns have a lot less teeth now and are in more danger to run into something that can just pieplate them, DTW Shotguns also open up Intuitive Attacks everywhere. On the flip side that makes expensive squishy CC troops, especially those relying on Camo like the BSG Oniwaban very tough to use.

    We're still missing a lot at this point, Rules of course but maybe more importantly Profiles. If we see drastic reworks such as significantly reduced access to Shotguns and interesting Lt choices with unique Skill and gear loadouts, N4 could be a massive improvement. Unfortunately I expect it will fall short of that, some Factions and Sectorials will be ported 1:1 (with pointcosts adjusted) and fall behind, some will end up great by accident and some will just continue to be good, since they had good balancing to begin with.
     
    #331 Teslarod, Aug 24, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am so glad the conversation reverted to normal.
     
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  13. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    "Honouring the truth", at first I didn't have intention to participate in this particular discussion, but now I think I will do it... :)

    I have to say I have mixed feelings with this particulary decision from CB.

    At first I thought it was a really bad decision or worse: "the easy one". Even if to me it has no impact. I play a lot IL even when isn't mandatory and to me is really really strange put more than 15 models in game. Later when I had a little time to think about I believe isn't so bad, not the worse, even it could be a good thing. Is only something new but... not so new! Really!

    I only had to remind myself what provoked in the pass the "too many orders army lists blossom"... If we think a little of what was Infinity pre-N3, we hardly could find in our memory lists with two full troups groups, or almost, with about 30 orders to use. It was more normal to find lists with one full group and maybe other with no more than 3 miniatures (ARO pieces or support pieces like "docs" or "engineers"). Yes, we could find armies like Ariadna or Haquiss with a larger orders pool, but mostly in two combats groups with 8 miniatures... With maybe, and only maybe 20 orders counting regulars,irregulars and impetuous.

    So, what happened in (or going to ) N3?

    ITS had new missions, more than ever, new fancy rules with a lot of things to do, too many buttons to push. Even, one seasson, sadly I don't remember well which one, maybe ITS Season 4 or 5, players earned "objetive points" and this were used to do the ranking. Not win or loose a Game, the Points you managed to achieve were used. To me this was the best point "season ever", you had objetives: if you acomplished them, then you went up in the class, if not you went down. This change a little the "paradigm" in the Game, favouring "push button" instead of "killing". The players should be worried about "to score" and not "to kill", but I don't remember if this season was the one where the Lt TAGS could push buttons too. When Lt TAGs couldn't push buttons anymore the construction of the list change a bit. Players were in needs to have orders to feed the "pushers". So, some factions were for one complete group plus, maybe, a second little one with some kind of support to two groups separately functional. It was in this scenary where I played a lot with ACO a list with 9+6 (15 tropus in total). It wasn't me the only one and a lot of armies went in this direction, but not all of them. Still were peoplo who used the big guys in one single and powerfull group and some lonely ARO piece...

    But then, the weapon range changed and too the hackers options and too: Command Tokens showed up. At first players still played lists with a really small group with one or two pieces or lists with more than one DA or TO troups, but sooner than later this kind of list weren't a good choice anymore. If you confronted a list same as yours in numbers, then "to go second" was an advantage, but if you confronted a larger list than yours, "to go first" were something bad because you didn't have orders in the small group to do nothing and only made you to loose order in the bigger one. And if you went second things didn't went better neither, because every casualty you suffered in ARO were something "expensive" because the ratio cost/benefit were always negative.

    I remember in the old old forum voices claiming against some changes because the "soul" of infinity went to die. Or some factions could never win again or... A lot of negative stuff. But the true was most of players adapted to the "new Era" and achieved some kind of succes with the factions they used to play with. Now maybe CB is taking a step back on what "infinity" is and how should be played. They tried to bring some "balance" to the game and avoid the too often heard: <<who goes first, wins!>>. Now the complains are mostly about spam list against limited lists. Maybe the 15 members army list is the best solution, which continues allowing the fancy use of command tokens we already ejoyed now.

    Could Corvus had choosed others solutions? Yes, sure, why not. The thing is this is what we will have to deal with in N4. At least in the begining of... because Corvus with all probability continues making settings in the rules. Using ITS or maybe in some way more direct putting then in the rulebook instead in a every day longer FAQ.

    It will not broke the game. Your main army it will be not garbaje. Yes, some lists, maybe does, but not all of them. Now they are a lot of list too complex to play if not with some extras. For real is the same as the 300 points standar match most of players are used to play, and nobody it is complaining about the 300 points standars, when some factions could play really well if the amount of points were 400 or 200. It is only a change and you and yours lists should change with it.

    I heard a lot of people saying "now nobody could play ariadna or haquiss", but the true is that they still can. Maybe not in that tournament or in that league, but still you can meet with a friend and have some fun playing 3 groups with 8 miniatures every one.



    We are talking too much about this decision comming from "balance" point of view, and maybe, I said, maybe, this were not the major intention of this limit. If I should do a bet of why CB choose "15 miniatures as standar" I put my money in "all this come from a view point Time". Having less miniatures every match will be shorter. And now people like "shorter" games. If you are willing to play all day you still can do it.

    Best regards, people!!
    After a while "while "writing my post I saw the "newest" was yours and cold ran over my back... But fortunately my fear was infundated :)
     
  14. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    I am not so sure about that. maybe its just me, but even with one combat group I dont play any faster, because I have to think a lot more how I am going to play a turn.
     
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  15. SpectralOwl

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    It definitely makes a difference if you're newer to the game. Fewer rules lookups and less profiles to keep in mind can matter when you haven't spent years memorising almost all of the rules. I still remember the first time I played my Bakunin, with 2 full combat groups. Half the game time was spent in the wiki and Army figuring out what the hell my Morlocks were doing at any given moment.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's part of it. There are certain players I know of who go full analysis paralysis no matter how many troops they're playing with, though.
     
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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Not so sure about the IRL time requirement, but games will last "longer" in N4.
    Most of my games in N3 were over depending on how much damage each side could cause turn 1. Turn two usually is the guy ahead shooting the other guy just shy of retreat and pushing some buttons. Turn 3 is mop up and cementing the major.
    Ofc not every game went exactly like that, just the majority in my case.

    With less Orders overall, changed Crits and more resilient troops per Order I'd recon we'll see more games decided in turn 2 or 3 now.
     
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  18. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I really didn't think about "troupers endurance"... But usually "better troups" resisting damage means "better killing" too. Probably you will have few orders for the "alpha strikes" but too you will face less targets.If now you don't have to deal with about 4-6 warbands in order to be in a position where start to do some really damage and avoid a rush in the enemy turn, you will focus yours efforts to kill something "valuable", not the little "garbage". So, even with a more hard targets in game, they should be faster.

    Of course, it will be allways slow and fast players, for who no matter how many miniatures they bring into table. Probably all of us would be that guy, both, sometimes: the too fast or the too slow.

    I don't deny, not at all, some games will be so slow as now, because the table's setup had a lot of weight in Infinity's games, and too, and don't forget, the mental block continues being there, at our "little side". Nothing can prevent us to be almost exterminated in one turn and don't know what to do next, or to fail every push button becoming really frustrated.

    But less miniatures in the end means less options, less dice rolls, less AROs and less choices to make, so despite the troup's endurance, the time will be shortter. It should be :D

    15 guys lists are a simplification of 20 guys lists, or 20... If we check some changes in Code One, we should see in N4, this is the path it looks Corvus had taken. Not too drastic changes but simplifier.
     
  19. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Easier cover and Crits no longer causing an auto wound, Shotguns no longer killing 3 people in one Order 8" from the main target. 5 less slots is often 7 Orders less since it contains a couple Impetuous models. 5 less cheap bodies to defend redistributes the points into other defenses. Minelayers, Perimeter, more capable ARO pieces, ARM preventing damage from crits... and ofc negating 2 Orders via Command Token matters more if your pool is a 25% smaller.
    Add in new Hacking swinging FTF rolls via Spotlight and we have a lot of factors slowing things down. Warbands/Warcors/Flashpulse bots were also used offensively. Mostly for Discover, Intuitive Attack, Repeater and Sniffer deployment.
    An aggressive approach is still going to be viable, both sides still have to cross the same board as before with less Orders. Looking forward to see more frequent AD, more TAGs, more high quality AROs like Swiss MLs as well as non Camo midfield presence.
    With MSV1 working against Smoke and less available Impetuous Smoke chuggers, the average ARO piece is harder to bypass as well. Positioning and counter deployment matters more as well when you have to pick a side for your Mutts rather than simply spacing them within +3 Range of each other across the board. Picking off Warbands with AROs is worth more, since backups are harder to come by on top of all that. Running two Irregular Impetuous troops is a lot of commitment now.
     
    #339 Teslarod, Aug 25, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I've heard some rumors that 250 points is becoming the standard in N4... is that true?
     
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