Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

Oh noes, i are cyberbully.

 

This thread pretty much is the embodiment of both extremes we all should strife to avoid.

Angsty sensationalism isn't a healthy approach to critique.

Straight up Ad Hominem isn't a productive response.
How about dismantling the arguments? It's not hard, if they're not straight up made up they have barely a shred of truth in them.
This isn't the first first thread like this and won't be the last.
If I mentally revisit some of the accusing party's literary contributions I'm not faring much better.

Are we trying to put in an application to the US White House social media team and need some references or something?

 

A brief moment of self-recognition, at last.

 

Considering the angry sensationalism is in reference to your style of posting, you're aware of the irony I assume?
Or maybe you misunderstood what my post said. You guys are more similar than either of you would like to admit.

 

I'll admit to being angry at the company, as it has undermined my trust and good will towards it and the love I have for the game way too many times already and the blows keep coming. I don't think you can show though that I tend to attack users first, but it's clear that I very often get attacked and even dogpiled on, for being angry at the company and being vocal about it.

What you may call "sensationalism", I see as a mode of speech that is both natural to me, unfiltered (as I do not have that natural filter and seem to come across a lot more forcefully than intended) and appears to get things done and get the message across to both the community and the company. If I were politely and quietly asking for issues to be recognized, I would be ignored - if not by the users, then surely by the company itself.

You may like it or not, that's beside the point. But to call that my being vocal and a bit brash being "similar" to users who are directly and personally hostile towards me, openly mock my disability, call me retarded, deluded, "cancer". No, that is not an assessment I would call anything close to fair, sorry.

 

Can you please shut up already with your fantasy paranoias, please? Or somebody just close the thread or expunge the non relevant posts so the rest of us can keep discussing the topic at hand?

 

Can you then shut up with the personal attacks and post something on topic, if you really so long to "discuss the topic at hand"?

Sheesh.

 

Well...


Time to start accepting fate or do something about it by creating roughly 500 sockpuppet accounts to swing the vote 5:1 in the other direction

Public opinion seems fairly exited.

 

@Koni, @psychoticstorm

 

okidoki...let's switc back to some nice discussions...


ALEPH
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1 10
ACHILLES Lieutenant Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, EXP CCW. (2.5 | 75)
PROXY Mk.1 Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
PROXY Mk.4 HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 25)
PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
NETROD . (0 | 4)
NETROD . (0 | 4)
DRAKIOS Red Fury + Light Flamethrower + 2 Devabots Kydoimos / Pistol,Shock CC Weapon. (1 | 45)
DEVABOT KYDOIMOS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (6)
DEVABOT KYDOIMOS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (6)
SCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 2 Devabots Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 34)
DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7)
DEVABOT CHARYBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7)

GROUP 2 2 3
NETROD . (0 | 4)
ARJUNA Boarding Shotgun, Akrylat-Kanone, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
x2 KIRANBOT E/Marat, Cybermines / Electric Pulse. (8)
LIBERTO Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
MONSTRUCKER Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

In terms of excitement...there are 23 bodies and 29 wounds on the table with this list. How exactly is this 15 unit cap solving anything?

Let's take a look at one of thse pesky Hqq lists I came to hate:


Haqqis
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GROUP 1 1 9 4
DAYLAMI (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 8)
DAYLAMI (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 8)
DAYLAMI (CH: Limited Camouflage, Inferior Infiltration) Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 8)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
HUNZAKUT (Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
KRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

GROUP 2 9 1 1
TARIK MANSURI Spitfire, Nanopulser, Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 55)
MUKHTAR (Multispectral Visor L2) Red Fury, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 37)
FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
FIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
NAFFATÛN Lieutenant Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
NAFFATÛN Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
ZULEYKA 2 Light Flamethrowers, Smoke Grenades / 2 Breaker Pistols, DA CCW. (0 | 14)
HAWWA' Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)

GROUP 3 1 1
MUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

21 bodies and 23 wound, but quite some AROs to face.

I am really not sure which one of those two I would prefer to get frustrated by.

 

I'm one of those people who's at best mixed on the idea (I like the design goal, I'm mixed on the execution) but there's no denying that it has very broad support. I'm glad there's so much enthusiasm for the change. :)

 

I have only heard one of one individual who actually enjoyed playing against massive horde lists with a more elite one. A lot of the people who are bemoaning the change are the ones who prefer to use such lists themselves, that's got to count for something. Again, I'm a bit skeptical of the specific implementation but the idea behind it is a good one.

Only 15 orders plus LT to do anything with. Even with an Achilles-level spearhead that's not enough to really crack a DZ and empty it out without some mistakes from the defender. Furthermore it's so top-heavy that Impersonators, Infiltrators and AD can neuter it with even their lighter gear. From my experience it takes about 10 orders to get a troop to the other end of the table if they're actually fighting, so a total clean-out isn't really possible unless you can clear AROs and obstacles with the second group or you get really lucky with AD.

 

Meh...

I stand by my opinion. That vote is imho a reflection of the frustration about the imbalance between low order to high order count and not about high order lists themselves.
The variability of lists will suffer and the playstyles between factions will converge closer to each other.

I still hope CB will balance low vs high over the coming years with different means, but for now I will just wait and see how this really turns out.

The thing is, playing with small list against hordes should have been made enjoyable over the last years. They were on a good way with NCO and TacAw. And it could have gone further to avoid the 15 limit.

 

It doesn't get much better than Achilles, so I agree that emptying a DZ can't be done easily. But there can be some significant damage done and there still are alternatve attackpieces to switch over. Those two list follow different concepts and ALEP would like to have first turn, while that Haqq list is rather turn 2.

But that's not what makes such lists so annoying...both lists can soak up huge amounts of orders/damage without it having any effect of their efficiency in the following turn. I've had really good first turns agains that Haqg list, slicing through their ranks and basically having killed 7 units, which is a pretty good number. Still it came back so heavy. Amping new attack-orientated units might seem to be the easiest fix, but we ended in an arms race upward spiral...more...more...more.

Capping it to 15 units, there will still be ways to maximize, as the underlying metrics have not been touched...or at least we don't know yet if or how they will be touched. So at this point I wonder if it was a good idea in the first place to communicate this default cap so early.

 

Proxies could do with a nerf, eating up slots? Probably not, would prefer the pricing gets adjusted.
The Aleph list has 5 bodies (3 Netrods, 2 Baggage Bots) without a means to ARO at all or from Range. The Devabots "die" with their controllers, don't chug Smoke and don't provide 2 Orders each like a Warband would. Not to mention they're even slightly more expensive despite that.
Also fairly manageable in terms of Order Pool looks fine to me.

The Haqq list has an entire Specialist for when that matters. It's not exactly CHA levels of 3+ Combat Groups of Regular Orders + Impetuous either. Aside from pushing buttons, how does it handle any of the available MSV2 Snipers or long range ARO pieces in general? Dicing it with Coordinated Daylami or Tarik I guess. That Haqq list does a lot of chip damage and has ubiquitous auto disable for high cost models. The Aleph list above would hate to play against that.

One of these lists is not quite like the other.
For a problematic Aleph List I'd take my usual 18 Orders Achilles + Dart List (ofc with Proxies). The ability to clear the problems with unhackable+Markerstate Dart and then sweep in with Achilles to gut your opponent no matter how good his ARO pieces are. You need extreme luck or loads of bodies to not suffer critical losses.

For good measure lets mention table density. The Haqq list is gonna be fine with 9(?) Infiltrators, Forward Deployment and Impersonation guys freeing up space. The Aleph list is more of a shooting gallery mostly crammed into the DZ with just Libertos deploying outside of the DZ. You could take Achilles V2 and shift stuff around for a MK2 Proxy, still would be a massive problem. Also lacks the multitude of expendable Smoke chuggers to FTF or Normal Roll "Total Cover" for the swarm on the field.

Wouldn't really call that Aleph list scary in N3 tbh. Looks good on paper, not so much on the table.

 

after seeing the results of 2 ITS and find there is some correlation between winrate and numbers, but not a complete one, I reeally hope CB has taken a deep thougt on active nerfing certain factions, while at the same time, compensate the factions over-nerfed with this change (because if they were also runing more than 15 orders but got bad results, this change nerfs them more). What worries me is that, every time a change is spotted, seems that is taylored for the allready top factions.

Also, there is the problem that a 15-man limit is not the same as a 15 regular order limit (some factions can go over it thanks to NCO, LT2, strategos, appart from impetous), and it doesn't also mean that it is a 15-bodies count (sincronized, proxys, pupets...). I am worried of how this will get into the table at the end.

 

Nope, they are not...and since both are pretty much clicked without too much of a thought and with different editons in mind, pointing out their differences and potenial weaknesses does not really make a strong argument for the 15 cap in favor of a more nuanced approach of reevaluating things that clearly went overboard.

Again: I am a huge fan of cutting down troop numbers on the table. Still I would argue that a cap will be a superficial sollution if not being backed up by some more sustainable readjustments.

 

second strike! one more comment out of tone, and i will close this ;)

 

Dont close the thread but rather give the offenders a little forum break if really necessary, please?

 

I feel it's worth mentioning that the lion's share of these abilities are available to the elite flavours of Haqq and Yu Jing, neither of which has exactly topped the power rankings in the past. And G:Synch is mostly employed by the PanO flavours that aren't winning much right now, plus O12 which I'm increasingly convinced is just PanO with the design limitations removed. The big outlier with this is definitely ALEPH, which got its spare bodies and OSS order-generating abilities to make up for a shortfall in orders they don't actually suffer from much anymore, which I agree will likely need some care to fix in N4.