Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

I generally don't like AVA limits as a balance mechanic. I like them as a reflection of the lore and a reason to play different sectorials. The AVA limit on Zhanshis in White Banner is stupid beyond belief, whereas I like the AVA limit on Liang Kai in the same list.

 

Mark my words, camos and multi-model troopers will rule the N4 meta.

 

You say as if Camo isn't already the best skill in the game.

If multi-wound, expensive models become more common, that is a good thing. Multi-wound models are often gorgeous looking, large centerpieces that call attention and make people go "oooh, that dude/dudette/alien thing looks neat! What game is it?" and it is a bummer when you built, paint, then put your 83 point behemoth on the table and watch it go down to a punk with a flashlight and a big knife.

The math is simple: a 40 point model should be worth as much as four 10 point models. But it seems the balance at this point in the game is that four 10 points models are usually better. So, skewing the balance to make both options useful is a good thing.

 

Guess how many of my irregulars I will be able to use in N4 compared to N3. Definitely a lot less. So the can of worms is already open.

We are not talking about AVA 1 and 2 profiles. Its about the cheap ones with AVA 4 to total

 

@DaRedOne he said multi-model troopers, not multi wounds. So something like post-humans, puppets, anything g:synchronized, etc...

 

@Sedral what he said

 

Sync and puppets both have Achilles heels in their controllers, you get more models on the board but they're reliant on another trooper to do anything. They're a step above a Perimeter Weapon but not at the same usefulness as a while extra trooper.

Posthumans will probably be OP, but they've been OP for the past decade, so what's new?

TA, NCO, Lt2, Strategos etc are going to be very powerful, but looking at what currently has them they tend to be very middling profiles to begin with, so unless they go overboard with them in N4 I'm not too worried.

 

Yeah, my bad. I read that one wrong.

I stand by my previous statement, though. Multi-wound models being stronger is good.

As for multi-model units... Bleh. I mean... Really? Are puppetbots going to get any stronger? Antipodes? Any G:synch troop? I doubt it.

Posthumans might get stronger, but posthumans are a point out of the curve and should well stay that way.

 

No. Posthumans should be nerfed.

 

Now that I‘ve seen the ITS statistics, I know why I don‘t like the 15 model limit. Nearly all of my armies are at the 15 Order average or above.

 

Is it possible to see one/some of his SEF-lists somewhere? I am not playing Haqq, but I'd like to see a competitive SEF-list.

 

Note that the ITS statistics includes peripherals as well.

 

It’s really quite simple. It takes a lot of orders to kill multi-troop models and enemy orders are capped to 45 (3x15+some LT orders). Losing multi-models troops doesn’t necessary reduce your orders. One can say that a troop “slot “ has earned its points back if absorbs 3 enemy orders and/or generates 3 friendly orders.

In non-tactical window games the orders aren’t capped. Order spam works well against multi-model troops.

 

It can take more Orders, but it's also possible to knock out most multi-model troopers by ganking the controller. With Posthumans being the exception (as usual).

 

It would be cool if you could Goodnight one posthuman to take out the whole team.

 

Swedish meta is choke full of SEF players, it's honestly ridiculous, but the player we're talking about tends to play vanilla. That said, can you show me an SEF list that is not competitive? Is that even a thing? Take the blind picks of Sheeskin, Q-Drones, Speculo, and a bunch of Taigha and you're going to have a really hard time not making it competitive. This is incidentally a good way to ruin your opponent's fun as vanilla as well.

As a side note; I don't think I've ever been critted by Sheeskin on a 1, she's more than able to walk all over armies on her own without critting in a way that I've only ever seen Achilles or Avatars do.

 

So that's different from N3 how?

15 Troop Slots limit is fun. Average troop cost of 20 for 15 models gets a lot of stuff on the table that is subpar atm. Toolbox MI, soso CoC, the sidegrade versions of Hackers and other Specialists, Haris and Duos as well as basic HI.

It doesn't devalue the 6 point Regular Order or the 5 point Warband, but makes it a choice compared to other stuff that could occupy the slots of a Warcor, Mutts, Netrods, Galwegians etc.

 

I wanted to say this ^ but was beaten to the punch by at least two people.

Frankly I think that any shift in the game to make elite units better is going to eventually need a nerf to camo or a buff to anti-camo. I'd love to see it reduced in cost and reduced in effect to a purely "you don't know what this model is" effect without the 'camo shield' or even the mimetism effects.

 

And then Ariadna doesn't have the numbers, doesn't have the camo game, what is left then? Drop support for Ariadna "because we have no idea how to adjust them to N5", as CB seems to do? Great.

 

You're aware Ariadna can just run 15 Camomarkers anyway and fit a Tankhunter ML or two where previously would have been a Cateran?
Or an E/Mauler Scout where previously would have been a Foxtrott?
While still running both Caterans and Foxtrotts?