Is the 15 unit limit a good design choice?

The moment you change the points level you are playing at is the moment you have to look at the 15 model limit. The 15 model limit is a standard set in conjunction with the 300 point level standard.

I think it would be appropriate to tie it to BS and/or let things re-set out of it.

 

If the US Billboard hottest 100 is anything to go by, it's also empowering. I suggest some people in this thread stay away from the Radio for the next couple of months.

And on that note, Presenting:


CAG
by
Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion




[Intro: Cardi B, Frank Ski & Megan Thee Stallion]
Warbands around
There's some warbands around
There's some warbands around
There's some warbands around (Hold up)
I said certified streak, seven days a week
Cheap-ass Ghazi, make your Rambo game weak (Ah)

[Chorus: Cardi B]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, you muckin' with some cheap-ass ghazi
Bring a visor and a smoke for this cheap-ass ghazi
Trade me everything you got for this cheap-ass ghazi

[Verse 1: Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion]
Set it up, playa, Equipe Mirage
Extra large behind my guard
Put this Ghazi right in your face
Jam you both like it wasn’t hard
Prone on top, I wanna hide
I do an ARO while I’m inside
Crit your TAG, tears in your eyes
This Ghazi is cheap, come have a try
Reveal your Camo, no surprise
Impersonate, should wear a disguise
I want you to waste orders right on a speculative barrage
At the tourney, make you scream
Out in public, make a scene
I don't shoot, I don't CC
But let me tell you, I got this Pin (Ayy, ayy)

[Verse 2: Megan Thee Stallion]
Swear at me, cry at me, complain online at me (Yuh)
Quick, jump out forum mods got mad at me (Yuh)
I tell him where to move it, never tell him where I'm 'bout to be (Huh)
I run down on him 'fore I have a player runnin' me (Pow, pow, pow)
Talk your shit, bite your lip (Yuh)
Declare reset while you ride that dick (While you ride that dick)
You really ain't never gonna engineer that thing (Yuh)
You already wrote-off that troop before he came (Ayy, ah)
Now only fifteen orders for this cheap-ass Ghazi (Ah, ah, ah)
I sold my army cos I can’t exploit this cheap-ass Ghazi (Click, click, click)
ITS rankin’ is just tankin’ without cheap-ass ghazi (Mwah, mwah, mwah)
Now make it rain if you wanna see more cheap-ass ghazi (Yuh, yuh)

[Verse 3: Cardi B & Megan Thee Stallion]
Look, I need a hard hitter, need a rage provoker
Not an easy critter, need a dodge smoker
Rush your frontline like a king cobra
Jam your L.T., and the game is over
He got some veterans, then that's where I'm headed
Ghazi shoots chain and he’s gonna get it
He has a Bolt, well, I'm tryna wet it
Failed his save, now he apoplectic
I don't wanna play, I wanna win
I wanna brag, I.T.S.’s no joke
And I’ll shout that it ain’t broke ‘til there’s blood in the back of my throat
My spam game is fire, add some Daylami
Your gonna cry until your collar is soggy
I ride on my crutch, put the fun behind me (Yuh, ah)
I’m an eceleb now, White Noise tryna sign me, woo

[Verse 4: Megan Thee Stallion]
Your honor, I'm a cheap bitch, got twenty-eight pieces
Switch our lists, make him feel like he cheatin'
Free play now, give him somethin' to believe in
Never lost a fight, but I'm lookin' for a beatin'
In the meta, first turn will eat ya
If he can’t surpass, he's a bottom-feeder
Big M stand for big Muttawi'ah
I could make ya rage before I ever meet ya
If it don't win, then mad chagrin
You can't hurt my feelings, but I like pain
If he beat me and ask why is it?
When I roll the dice, I'ma say my luck is lame

[Chorus: Cardi B]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
Yeah, you muckin' with some cheap-ass Ghazi
Bring a visor and a smoke for this cheap-ass Ghazi
Trade me everything you got for this cheap-ass Ghazi
Now from the top, orders to drop on some Cheap-ass Ghazi
Now get a visor and a smoke, that's some cheap-ass Ghazi
I'm talkin' jam, jam, jam, that's some cheap-ass Ghazi
Five points a pop, that's some cheap-ass Ghazi, huh

[Outro: Frank Ski]
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around
There's some whorebands around

 

I'm gonna page @psychoticstorm here not because you used the word whore and my brain can't compute that, but because you're presenting Cardi B as music and that fucking triggers me to no end.

 

Yeah, because of that i said it should be nice that the troop limit will be tie to the match tier... 10 troops for low tier, 15 for mid and 20 for top.

PS: Stay on topic is lava or WTF?

 

Is it a Good Design Choice? No. It doesn't fix the issues at the core of the problem.
That said it doesn't bother me because with their new focus on a living rulebook I doubt it will last more than the next ITS Season or 2. And then they will make new adjustments.

 

I dont see this going away. I believe that there is more to see and that a lot of the concerns will be addressed. Different style of game play if you were 1 of the 16 plus order counters, but not bad.
I am also very confident that if they didn't move to 15 models and instead priced warbands and low cost spam models by almost double and hi stayed the same or even lowered in price the outrage would be equal. End result likely would have been the same but I feel in a much more punitive way. Maybe it would have given the freedom to try and field something that doesn't work but why bother. They aren't saying you can't play more than 15, they are saying you can't compete with more than 15. Its a rule like any other.
Play how you want to play but compete by the rules.

 

CB also seems to be lowering the "standard game" size to 250pts as well, going by recent boxed releases.

 

Eh, Flash Pulses aren't so bad compared to massed camo IMO.

 

...you mean like camo and smoke? And TI, against flash specifically.

I mean, flash spam might be annoying, but most trouble I had with them were due to random crits, and those are already getting a nerf.

 

The most effective way to look at 15 models limit is to consider them similarly to the points and SWC.
300 point, 6 swc, 15 model ITS game
per 100 points you get 2 swc, 5 models

The only shame is that it removes a section of play styles that have more than 15 models, but given how the game resources work, orders are king, it's truly hard to balance this effectively, so trying this out is a noteworthy attempt.

 

Here is a question: why, in one hand, CB is releasing more and more ultra optimized cheap ass profiles and, in the other hand, suddenly they want 15 toon groups be the new normal? Isn't that contradictory? For me that's bad design when you are promoting the very playstyle you then want to remove from the game.

Also I think if you have to constantly cheat your "points formula" when designing profiles then something is not working well with that formula as in, if you know some equipment/skills are better than others why not adjust points?

 

Good outcome, clumsy execution. However, the arguments about "simple and clean, instead of a 2 year live beta of adjusting the points" etc seem pretty legitimate too.

Would have preferred something like what toadchild mentioned way at the start of the thread. Increase the cost of an order by a flat rate. Brings down the value of everyone, but the cheap dudes far more than the expensive dudes.

Otherwise, another cool idea could be loss of VP for casualties or more casualties than opponent etc. A mixture of the value of the lives of your troops and the whole 'leave no evidence' thing.

Overall, happier with the change than without it, and impressed that CB has the guts to attempt big shake ups of the meta and address problems in their game (or 'problems' if you are that way inclined.

 

15 Troopers in a 300 point game means an average of 20 points per Trooper, CB hasn't released nearly enough extremely cheap miniatures to make it hard to find Troopers with a higher cost than 20 in any given army. What it does do is make it more possible to use the really expensive troopers while maintaining a somewhat filled list.

 

I hear this a lot and it seems confusing to me.
if orders are king why we don't see usarf, vanilla haqq, cha, or hassasin winning all tournaments instead of aleph, ca, Shas, tohaa.

Maybe because those factions have more than just orders and probably they never had to have access to some tools that negate their weak spots? Naaa that's impossible it's all the fault of factions who actually need 16+ orders to work.

 

I play way too many factions, branching into 8 or so sectorials (not counting NA2).

Yeah, this is a good change.

-I've seen too many games where a scot player gets 3 turns versus 2 for their opponent (not going into deliberate vs happenstance) on account of the order differential.

-Low-tech armies ignore the issues of beign hackable, by-and-large, while also having ample access to mines and camo which are rather fundamental tools at the "serious" levels of play.

-With each order being a potential win condition in and of itself (how many times do you thing you'll fail your WIP13-14 "boop the button" roll on the objective?), you are quite literally incentivised to max out the number of orders you have.

-It brings the game back to what it is ostensibly marketed as, a "deniable/black ops/special insertion team (heh)", rather than "Ol' wallace went to the pub and gathered up O'Malley and 15 other lads for a bit of a punch-up".

-Profiles we never got to see (a dearth of MI) may now have a new lease on life.

-No, this doesn't kill CHA/MRRF/USF/Bakunin/whatever. Wulver links, Margot & Duroc, Anaconda, Unknown ranger, blackjacks....it kills YOUR comfort zone.

I'm actually surprised in a positive manner. Quite honestly, I had resigned myself to CB never touching the matter as from a business standpoint "sell them more minis = better". Maybe they're realising your average infinity play can't stop themselves after 1 faction/sectorial...or that could just be me.

 

Haqq is a very common winner in Stockholm and the world rank 1 player of 2019 got there mostly off the back of playing Haqq with 16+ Troopers, meanwhile I often see CA, Shas, and Tohaa with 16+ Troopers when they are scoring well.

I wouldn't say "orders" are king so much as trooper figures (and armed peripherals) are king. An Aleph Proxy is much more valuable than a single trooper of the same cost as all three proxies combined and those little Taigha bastards do much to propel Shasvasti and Combined to godhood around here.

 

The "Order is king statement" is not to be seen as an explicit way to say Army with more order > Army with less order.
But as a way of saying that number of Order is the first "equipment" one has to take in consideration in infinity in list building.
One example I can make playing Vanilla Nomads it's the Moderator vs Securitate. As order filler Moderator will always win, 9 point vs 13 means that while 2 Securitate are 26 point, 3 Moderator are 27, 1 extra order for just one extra point. Yeah securitate are good for the extra point cost, but not so good to bump them over the order filler territory.

Instead now with model count limit there could be situation when Securitate are taken into consideration.
If I build a list where I reach my 15 model limit and I still have point to spare I could take in cosideration some upgrade, one of this could be "powering up" my order filler in to something more efficient with more survival chance or utility to maximize the ratio of model count/point/efficiency.

 

Would it be an idea to de-couple orders and troopers somehow? I.e. limiting lists to 15 orders, while allowing for more troops? Don't know how it would be done in practice, but it would remove the order spam, while still keeping an advantage in "bodies".