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Anti-HI - What Do You Like To Use?

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by sololobo, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I just love the fact he can turn a Avatars BTS 9 to 0 with icebreaker and immobilize it. Even better if you can then use Daylami panzerfausts to kill it :joy:
     
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  2. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    The humble PF Daylami has been praised about since I joined Haqqislam a year or two ago. I bought a few packs and fielded several. They never killed a single thing, died easily, and literally made me want to quit Haqqislam as a weak and trash faction. I quit infinity for about several months due to bad game. But, everyone has different experiences. :)

    Namurrs, look amazing. But, I really had a hard time placing their role on the battle field an you guys later detailed she was a top tier specialist. It all made sense after that. I do want to make use of her similarly to the Ayyar. Speaking of the Ayyar, I already have him in a new list I drew up that uses the E/M and R.I.P. version.

    I am a skeptic of the E/M Bashi Bazouk, but several have mentioned her. I may have to give her a go in a QK list to see what the fuss is about. But, the one I really want to drop from the sky is the Ragik! However, I was unable to find him a slot in my two HB lists, but he may have better in a non-sectorial list. Druze, I am working on trying to build a link team with them in QK as we speak. A link team of E/M L.Grenade launching speculative templates is just too good not field.

    These two comments made me realize I need a way to deal with both long ranged HI link teams and short ranged HI solos attempting to close the gap. Anti-HI robustness is the lesson of the day! lol
     
  3. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    And the long-range linked HI can be further subdivided into active-turn units and ARO units.

    I find Haqq has real trouble dealing with, say, a linked Haidao sniper. It can see right through our smoke. Even a Mukhtar can't outshoot it. You won't get a Mutt far enough up the board to hit it with an e/marat. Maybe the e/mauler Bashi is a good option - I haven't tried it. Or the coordinated order Daylami strike.

    On the other hand, if you're dealing with something like a linked Vet Kazak HMG, the answer is simple - hide in your reactive turn. Never leave anything out where an HMG can get at it. We don't have good long-range AROs.

    As for solo rambo HIs up in your DZ? Mutts.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, my comment was more about something else.
    If you run dice calculator for a bit, you'll see that armor on most HI does almost nothing, while extra wounds tend to make active pieces more resilient to occasional bad roll, but that's roughly about it in most situations. So I was referring to a possibility that your issue isn't with HI per se but with your stuff being blown up with dedicated active pieces and/or with you having some problems identifying sufficiently good active pieces of your own for specific tasks you have to deal with. Which is understandable because Haqq is somewhat short on amazing shooters. Or, perhaps, relying on winning direct confrontations during reactive phase, which is just not happening to Haqq.

    With Infinity being a high-variance game about units that are typically very short on any sort of buffer, and which uses a fundamental system that allows you to apply your entire list's worth of pressure to a single spot, I wouldn't recommend to treat it as a competition of stat blocks put one in front of another because circumstances (which turn is this, who do you have LoS to and from where etc.) are usually much more powerful than those stats. And while stats do matter, I would suggest to spend some time to see which stats have more weight in determining the outcome. You'll probably find out that it's not what comes with being HI that is a dealbreaker in most cases, and as a side effect you'll probably see which moves aren't that great in general (like see if using that Ayyar's EM with its woeful B1 even on the active turn is worth it when we're talking about something that works in 30% of cases at best but also demands you to stick one expensive model with no order-saving mechanic right into the heat).

    In short, it's not anti-armor that you seek. It's usually either a good enough shooter who can be at the right place and time to get your opponents with their pants down or a good order sink(s) / area denial pieces.

    @QueensGambit has given some pretty solid advice, by the way.
     
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  5. emperorsaistone

    emperorsaistone Well-Known Member

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    Daylami are just there to die and soak up precious orders in the process. If they kill something, its a bonus.

    And Haqq definitely isnt weak, its just not as straight forward as other factions. Once you figured it out, Haqq is very strong.
     
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  6. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    In HB I use my Daylamis mostly as cheap throwaway units that act as first turn roadblocks to enemy Rambos - something my opponent has to use his orders for getting rid of (Daylami PF with limited Camouflage is great for that - even if I fail my infiltration roll I still have the PF to threaten advancing Rambos). They are not there to kill in the first place - but when they manage to kill something, it is a rather unexpected bonus.

    Last game against Bakunin I was able to infiltrate a Daylami PF next to a Moira Sniper (associated to a 5 man linkteam) atop a building - He did not dare to use the expensive Moira-Link the complete first turn and spent multiple orders to get a Morlock between both miniatures, trying to prevent LOS.


    -> ninja'd by emperorsaistone :)
     
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  7. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    See, this right here is more or less what I have been looking for. A HI threat that poses such a problem for us that we have to have A, B, or C answer to deal with it or its game over minus scenario. And, a PF Daylami is not going to solve this problem. And then, you validate we have trouble matching when peer to peer leaving indirect answers or scenario. I am wondering if a linked team of Druze and E/M Grenade Launchers or a Ragik w/ AHD could put the Haidao Sniper some trouble. Lastly, can we just use Missile Launchers or Heavy Rocket Launchers to solve the Haidao or Vet Kazak?

    I'm sorry, Barrogh, your breakdown is flying over my head, but I understand the part where we are using our entire list to achieve X where that might be killing one dude or otherwise. And, we are not PanO, disruption and opportunity will win the day.
     
  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    It's worth a try! If you get the Druze within 24", spec fire is zapping the Haidao on 22%. Not great odds, but you're not risking getting shot in return. Average of 5 orders to take it out isn't great, but may be worth it. But watch out for their engineer.

    My go-to for a Haidao is to go after the link with Djabel. He often won't be able to get close to the Haidao itself, but taking out even one link member makes it a lot easier to then outshoot the sniper. Often the link has a soft Rui Shi underbelly.

    Or, if you can work around the sniper for a turn, it becomes a lot less threatening once they have to advance the rest of the link and leave the sniper behind. The downfall of Invincible Army links, all their points are in one place...
     
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  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, with the exception of pointing out that Haqq struggles with having god-tier shooters, my post wasn't faction-specific. In general, my main point was that I have an impression your problem is that you're just in the process of learning to apply Infinity fundamentals rather than you struggle with specific units.

    If we are to talk about specific points above, my comment on "list's worth of pressure" was referring to Order system. In order to use almost all shots in their army against single front of your defenses, people only need to bring only one piece there, and that's likely going to be the best piece for the task. This is unlike wargames with individual activation, where you'd need to bring your entire force to face that spot to do the same, and even then you wouldn't be able to shoot with the strength of your best unit. But in Infinity it's not only possible, it's a norm. Add to that general design philosophy of the game where most units don't get second chances and where Damage difference between weakest and strongest bullet is meager 10%, you'll see that killing stuff normally doesn't require special bullets, but rather a shooter in right position. In that sense, HI aren't any different from anything else in terms how you "solve" them with bullets. The main, and huge, difference their extra W makes is when it comes to one-off attacks: either something you cannot repeat just by spending more orders (think DTWs which you will almost definitely lose in the attempt - 2W units will not die to Chain Rifles in one go no matter what), or some hail mary plays where you use suboptimal tools hoping for the best (because in that case chances of losing that tool during attempts are very real).

    As for disruption and not being PanO... Tbh factions aren't that different in what they do, but that's a bit beside the point right now, I guess. Haqq defenses usually lack "hard" pieces that are being put somewhere where they can either shoot weaker units or force opponent to spend orders bringing their better offensive pieces. We either throw bodies hoping that opponents gas out and give us another chance to do damage on our turn before we start quickly losing regular orders, or we plop mutts and the like somewhere hard to reach and hope opponents will spend extra orders trying to dance around them.

    Well, spec fire can be okay against linked stuff because you can often target several softer units in the link giving you better chance to bring down link bonuses. Targeting a single piece whose entire purpose is to make you waste orders (and spec fire wastes orders alright) is questionable move and must be considered carefully as you may end up playing into opponent's hands.
    Spec fire is usually reserved for crucial pieces which break opponent's gameplan should they die (making it worth it), or for clustered pieces which increase statistical damage output of template weapons to sane levels. Although things may change in N4 if Spotlight improvements supposedly teased in C1 will get through, making Muyib link with Barid support somewhat scarier - if other possible changes won't counteract that.
    (I may have missed something important here; sorry if that's the case)

    As for AD troops, they definitely can drop link members efficiently, in a manner not unlike impersonators to an extent. Make sure you have means to ensure their safe landing. If you are going to attack that Haidao directly with them, make sure you have him out of cover, otherwise odds are still seriously against you. Although I'd still suggest trying to drop link fillers first.
    Oh, and if you are going to use vanilla, consider if you can fit Nahabs instead of Rajiks. NWI and options to use marker state (from KHD) and/or regular Infiltration seem to be well worth those 4 points (and you can save 0,5 SWC if you go B4 route). CC22+NBW is also nice given that you have good access to smoke in opponent's half of the table through Fidays (and aforementioned marker state if you go KHD route).
     
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