Opening disclaimer: Obviously the Shang Ji costs and profiles are subject to considerable change with N4, but take this as a conceptual overview. So you take a look at the following beginning of a list: The White Banner Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 4 JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) You probably see an incomplete HI core link waiting to be filled out by a final unit, probably a wild card like Lei Gong or a Tian Gou. I don't see that when I look at it. I see several Fireteam: Duos awaiting their partners. Further fleshed out I can build something like this: The White Banner Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 2 SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) GROUP 2 2 JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) GROUP 3 2 SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) Something I was testing last year was Vanilla running HI duos. Ultimately I liked the concept and the performance on the table felt good with Zuyongs and Wu Ming having great cost effective abilities. The real kicker that prevented it from being more than a meme ultimately was the mechanics around Team Pro requiring way too heavy investment in command tokens to form the duos instead of allowing them to start the game formed for free. Things are obviously subject to change given how exactly the profiles, particularly Shang Ji, shake out cost wise but I'm going into N4 with the mindset of continuing to explore splitting up a conventional core link team into multiple teams. There are pros and cons to this. Obviously you lose out on the expected to remain big core link bonuses, however you gain some advantages like spacing your resources out so they are unlikely to get killed by one rambo piece and essentially better board coverage able to put more specialists/firepower/jammers in different places and a better ability to exploit multiple attack vectors. White banner are particularly able to exploit this through shellgame nonsense thanks to the Tian Gou wildcards. Your opponent will never be able to fully know what he's walking into. Is that really a Jujak? Or is it some asshole with a Jammer? Does that Shang Ji duo actually contain an KHD backed up by a Tinbot B, is there even a Tinbot in that unit? Is there indeed SWC committed on an HMG/HRL Shang Ji or is it a front to hide a Hun Dun HRL? To me this kind of trickery sounds like far more fun to play with than some bland HI pain train.
As a small aside, allowing Duo in vanilla with no extra strings attached (or possibly as a passive on EVO) would be a nice thing. Granted, these Duos don't work in vanilla, but it could be the thing needed to make the moderately powerful units more viable in vanilla.
Right now I'm assuming no change or worse for the Shang Ji. Hopefully I'll then be pleasantly surprised. Since the fireteam rules going to be in N4 instead of waiting for another Human Sphere, the chance is higher Vanilla will get the Duo. I haven't tried Duos yet in any YJ force yet (unless you count after everyone else as died in a core/haris). For me I think the Jujak Spitfire + Lei Gong can be pretty good. As you noted above, the SJ+TG KHD is also a good one. While technically not a duo, the SJ with tinbot and Ye Mao KHD is also good because the YM has BTS 6. This is what I ran a few times and liked for a WB Haris. SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) YĚ MĀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) 0.5 SWC | 96 Points Just to get some perspective for those that don’t play WB. Core: Shang Ji, Zhanshi Haris: Shang Ji, Ye Mao Duo: Jing Qo + Shaolin, Shang Ji, Jujak, Blue Wolf Any number of Jujak may join a core team of Shang Ji Wildcards: Tian Gou (up to 1) Shang Ji (up to 1) Lei Gong Chiang Gao Adhil Mehmut
I think the fact that they're going to multi rifles as standard kit actually helps out this duo concept if their cost stays pretty much the same. Gives them a bit more bite compared to shelling out on HI armed with combi rifles.
I am hoping that N4 recognises some other discounts, like their CC stat being relatively trash, or being hackable becomes a discount or something. They are also switching to chain colts which will help cheapen them up a little.
Unfortunately I doubt being hackable would give much discount. Then they would have advantage over non-hacking forces like Ariadna and Tohaa. I hope they keep the LFT though. It's one of the things like liked about them. I had wanted them to be the one to get HFT instead of a whole new troop in the Jujak.
Tohaa can still hack all HI (except Hollowmen, Su-Jian and Karakuri). I think we can be fairly certain the light flamer is going away and CC going up to nearly-but-not-quite useful level, considering Shang-Ji's state in CodeOne.
I guess they can but does anyone take the White Hacker? Phermone stuff isn't quite hacking. It affects anything with Wound HI or not HI.
Oh, I 100% mean the pheromones. It works like hacking, or near enough if you consider the repeater network only slightly smaller than your typical Yu Jing list, but still... pheroware tactics do not play around. It's difficult to call this one a drawback for Tohaa/Spinal - "oh no, I have no hacking, I guess I'll just isolate everything except your Rui Shi". Glad native Hellzone or Endgame isn't a thing... yet.
HI has drawbacks. Being hackable can be bad, very bad. Being extra weak agains EM also sucks. And on top of that HI pays special taxes for some skills, mosty deployment related. I think that being HI should grant some kind of discount, or at least being hackable should.
Rather Ariadna already has an advantage over hacking forces, it would simply be evening the playing field. There is no benefit to our HI carrying the hackable status. Compare our cutting edge Zencha's armour to this "Heavy Infantry" dickhead: 1 VETERAN KAZAK AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 47) He's more durable at ARM4 and has shock immunity, and can walk right past a repeater unmolested. The power of russian black magic and vodka apparently.
Separate question: should Adriana just lose the HI classification on theirs? Means non-hackable HI aren't a thing anymore. With MI becoming 4-4 in N4 (based on C1) all their HI (apart from Vet Kazak) could be 1W MI with no change. As a whole the classifications need readdressing from a design and balance perspective. HI can't be defined solely by its vulnerabilities (2W and high BS/PH/ARM no longer being defining features). It does look like they've potentially considered this and realised that the defining benefit of power armour is in being a durable mobility platform for heavier weapons (6-2 MOV, HFT, HMGs, etc). An easy way to make HI instantly feel stronger is remove HMG from all LI (and arguably any non-servoarmour HI) platforms. Wanna carry and accurately fire a high rate of fire .50cal? Wear servo-armour.
Agreed. I'd even go so far as to say that E/M is a bit rare against certain factions. I don't play factions with too many E/M weapons in total, but if I did I wouldn't prioritise it against anything Ariadna. With that said, it increasingly seem like what they've been doing with Medium Infantry is creating a stepping stone to Heavy Infantry - particularly now that they've discontinued the flat 4-2 MOV - and having MI be vulnerable to E/M could be an interesting partial-HI vulnerability, but just like with how HI has to come with perks that MI doesn't have, it'd have to come with some perks that wouldn't exist on LI/SK/WB. (Obviously, an undeniable discount is a perk).
I'm in favour of having non-servo Ariadnan HI moved to MI status so the non-hackable skill can be removed, take out the Moblot's vulnerability to having his trousers locked up by E/M, and encourage more of those big fun Blackjack and Ratnik type designs.
Honestly, they should have just jettisoned the unit types entirely in N4 and made TAG, Remote, and Powered Armour into skills. Any classifieds or mission objectives can be FAQd to work off classification instead (HQ/Elite/Garrison/etc)
I'm finding whenever I make a list of Shang Ji, No matter what, the list is going to be Limited. I'm find myself with 1 or two guys in second group so might as well. However I find that the Jujak don't help much. I end up upgrading to SJ. Again, if going Limited, then Tac Aware is too good to leave. This is an ok team. But it doesn't leave me much for the rest of the force. SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) JUJAK Breaker Combi Rifle, Heavy Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0.5 | 38) JUJAK Spitfire, Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 39) JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) 2.5 SWC | 190 Points This team for only 8pts more is better. 2 TA orders and fire power. Still the same problem as above but at least a better team. SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) 3 SWC | 198 Points With a Tian Gou (disguised as Shang Ji AHD) Would be pretty good Initially but he doesn't have the staying power. It gives me a little more points for the rest of the force but It's still going to be Limited. TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 23) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) SHÀNG JÍ (Tactical Awareness) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 42) JUJAK Engineer Boarding Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 36) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) 2.5 SWC | 178 Points
