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Weapon chart

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Sangarn, May 31, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because it is so much cheaper. It's disproportionately effective because it is so much cheaper.

    And I mean, if I could exchange all combis in my army with Light Shotguns or Assault Pistols, I'd reach the same effect - or close enough to not make a difference. Yeah, there are issues with performance or cost, but it's one or the other, not both.
    For me, personally, it's the cost because in general I think cheap units provide too much valuable by being cheap and the SMG is mostly used to make units cheap rather than valuable - as evidenced by how expensive units with the SMG aren't necessarily valuable just because they have an SMG.
     
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  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Well, duh. News flash SMGs are 5 points cheaper than combis.
    How is saving 5 points on every linetrooper relevant? Gosh I wouldn't dare to guess.
    Really wonder why we don't have 5 point SMG Fusiliers though.

    SMGs are far from an ideal weapon to have for offensive action in N3. They're dirt cheap, can SF and get AP/Shock. They're a very good deal no doubt. But they're far from the end all be all to spend Orders on, even if found on a troop that excels at using them, like Dart, Ryuken or a TO troop. SMG troops with active offensive use are fairly cheap opportunists for the kit they bring. They're not going the be able to efficiently spend an entire 10 Order pool even some of the time.
    Especially the Ryuken is a prime example of a troop that is very inefficient outside of positive Rangebands. A Spitfire or HMG just clears stuff better when you get better odds than rolling 3 9s vs a Dodge or Smoke.

    The more expensive your trooper gets and the better he uses Orders for combat, the less you want an SMG on him. You don't want to dice it against Shotguns in +6 and DTWs all the time. You also don't want to only have a +0 to outrange them either. You're also pretty much toothless at the ranges any sort of ARO likes to fight. Same for Patsy, for something that costs 40 points, she hits like wet paper. Dart is going to be able to reach targets no one else can, on rooftops, with 2.0 wounds to soak and mitigate the Mine/DTW/Shotgun problem. She's about the most expensive piece with perfect circumstances to make an SMG work, but still is mostly a cleaner to assist whatever is spending group 1's Orders.

    Ignoring points the Combi is the better weapon against the average target in the most common battlefield situation. Relatively to the upgrade of a Spitfire or HMG it's frankly terrible, but having a +3 on 3 dice is going to beat AP/Shock most of the time (again for N3).
    But we do have a weapon closer in price to pit against the SMG, which would be the Rifle. If I had to pick in between the two and had to get the job done with the weapon of choice, I'd go with the Rifle.
     
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In Onyx, my line troopers don't even have combis (barring the K1 combi).

    But you just proved my point - the 5 point discount for an SMG vs. a combi is far greater than the loss in power.

    True, but neither are combi rifles, and SMGs are frequently more ideal than a combi, and are much cheaper.

    I really disagree. Combis are better in the 8-16 range band only. Any other band, the SMG is going to be superior; think of how much shittier the Ryuken-9 would be if it had a combi rifle.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Considering circumstances, Combis are shit tier weapons.
    Worse relative to cost than Rifle+LSG, LSG+Panzerfaust, Spitfire, HMG, Viral Rifles.... etc.
    Other weapons that are pretty terrible are Multi Rifles, over 90% of all cases you'd want a Spitfire for better Range coverage and higher B or a Viral Rifle for a better ammo type than Multi.
    The SMG is a very shitty version of the Multi Rifle, with terrible Rangebands and no DA/Stun ARO option.

    SMGs can pick their engagement far less than even Combis, Ammo type matters less than a +3 against the majority of targets. Where even a light Shotgun gets easy miltipliers by ignoring Cover ARM and hitting multiple targets, SMGs come with SF. Which requires Orders, likely to spend on a platform that will lose FTF anyway.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I disagree about the "majority of targets." NWI skirmishers are a huge deal, given Posthumans and Dasyus, especially since ALEPH/OSS is so strong. The ammo types mean that within 8", SMGs are better than Combis, and oftentimes better than shotguns (when you can maneuver so the defender doesn't have cover and you don't need the blast.)
     
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  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    How do you see a SMG toting troop end up as your primary choice to engage TO Infiltrators in the cases you mention?
    Aside from the simple problem that the majority of Factions does not have NWI Skirmishers, let alone TO NWI ones.

    Shotguns can bounce shots off (unconscious) targets from up to 24" away and from outside LOF thanks to their cone. Every time you can hit multiple targets your effective Rangebands can be expanded by dinging your shot of the closer target. That's pretty OP atm, not really surprised it gets removed for N4 in favor of a DTW mode.

    Wouldn't similar logic make Multi Rifles better than Spitfires? Cheaper, much better ammo types, worse rangebands?

    They're definitely better bang for their buck than a combi on cheap troops, which is great since a lot of SMG toting troops will never see an Order outside of a desperate ARO spend on their gun. And that's fine, you save points on them after all.
    There's a few actual combat troops who have the choice in between an SMG and something else. Oniwaban for instance. I'd argue a better gun, like a BSG is too much value on a combat trooper to not take it unless you really need to shave off points. If SMGs and saving points were everything, Shinobu would be pretty obsolete, considering how much cheaper the SMG Oniwaban is, yet people still want to pay for her Combi and all the minor upgrades to get Smoke out of the deal. Somehow that seems to suggest the SMG isn't a superior weapon, no?
     
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  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It doesn't matter, because to do well in tournaments you have to beat the most powerful factions, and OSS/ALEPH has NWI/Dogged skirmishers. There's a variety of options for dealing with them, but Shock ammo is always a good idea against them, and SMGs are one of the cheapest ways of getting it. If you're scrubbing the midfield of Nagas and Posthumans then you're probably more than capable of doing it to another faction.

    Sure. Not super relevant to my point.

    The Burst difference is pretty huge, as is the fact that on the troop types who tend to have them, they aren't usually deployed midfield. The points difference is also less than that of a combi and SMG. That said midfielders with Multi Rifles (like Ko Dali) get a lot of use out of them.

    It's actually not fine, because there's a 5 point discount for almost no lost utility, and depending on the matchup increased utility.

    I see the SMG Oniwaban with much higher frequency than Kitsune on the table. The point is that factions which get access to effective SMG troops (ALEPH is a good example) have an advantage over factions that don't, because their troops are inherently more point-efficient.
     
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  8. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    @Hecaton so in the faction(s) you play, what units do you typically bring that have combis?

    Of those units, if you could replace the combi with an SMG - but for no points reduction - which units would you take the replacement on?
     
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  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Rodoks, Nexus, M-Drones. It'd hurt the most on M-Drones but it'd be worth the points saving.
     
  10. SpectralOwl

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    I know this was directed at Hecaton, but for NCA you'd take a no-discount SMG on Hexas, Devas and the Garuda, as well as the Combi ORC profiles. Hexa and Garuda have safe approach methods and are pretty good at Suppressive Fire, Deva and ORC really want Shock access to deal with Dogged DTW-wielders before they lose their second wound.
     
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  11. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    You didn't read the question. I asked which units you'd switch to an SMG *if you didn't get a points reduction.*

    Your premise throughout this thread has been that the SMG is a better weapon than the combi, period. You've been arguing against people who say that the SMG isn't an inherently better weapon, its value lies in the points reduction you get by taking it. So I'm surprised to see you suggest that switching a combi to an SMG would "hurt" but be worth it for the points reduction!
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    On the Rodoks and Nexus I'd do it, definitely. Also on all of my Malignos profiles that have combis.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @QueensGambit Any other things to add? Or are you going to continue to insist that a 5 points discount for having an SMG vs. a Combi is fair?
     
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    @Hecaton you're hilarious. No I have nothing to add. You've reversed your position and have now agreed with the rest of us, so my work is done.
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You are both not reading what the other person wrote and talking past each other, honestly.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Welcome to the Infinity forums, where half the problems are made up and what the other guy said doesn't matter.
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If a combi rifle was priced the same as an SMG, you'd have a point. You don't. I haven't reversed my opinion on anything.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean, I misunderstood what he said in his first post and then corrected. We're talking past each other because @QueensGambit somehow doesn't think that SMGs being more effective for their points value than combis means they're more points-efficient. It's trivially true.
     
  19. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    He agreed with you and even backed up your math (to a degree) that an combi would take 50% more orders to take down a Szalzie under the conditions posed. Perhaps I'm the one making the mistake here, but I'm pretty sure everyone here understands that the SMG is a situationally better weapon than the combi, and I'm also nearly 100% sure everyone agrees it is underpriced for its performance.

    He did nothing of the sort. He (eventually) gave 3 examples of troops that he would gladly take the SMG on even without a points discount (I'd probably add Fraacta to that list for an anti-armor side-grade), which is what you asked for.

    I don't recall a single person in the thread... or anywhere else for that matter, claiming anything of the sort. As I said before, I'd bet that everyone thinks it's undercosted.

    Now to what you guys should actually be arguing about is the degree to which either weapon is situationally better. To say the SMG is situationally better implies that the combi is also situationally better (just different situations). Seeing the back and forth, I think the only thing you guys disagree on is how many situations that is and how easy it is to get into those situations. THAT would be a conversation worth having.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I already mentioned it upthread when I said that in most engagements, I'd rather have the SMG. I don't think paying a 5 point tax on all your troopers for a weapon you're probably not even going to use and probably won't protect them if the enemy tries to attack them is very useful.
     
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