I agree but I think it's pointless to discuss stuff in a vacuum. It's a complicated game with smart and unpredictable opponents.
I disagree. I think it's wrong to make binary decisions (x=good therefore y= bad) in a vacuum. Discussing things while acknowledging the nuance is extremely useful. Both have different advantages and disadvantages, one is not clearly better than the other. The situations and play styles that favour a Tsyklon FB over a MB ML are useful to understand and are consequently useful to discuss. The reality is I use both depending on what it is I want my list to achieve. The differences in range are just one point to consider amongst a myriad of others: however, by-and-large, I personally find I prefer AROs that have a positive 16-24" range over those that do not.
Majority of armies have some amount of camo/HD elements, with others relying on it almost entirely, which is why sniffers/sensors are almost always useful, especially when coordinated to ping a large area of the table and running a pair of the flash bots, this has the added advantage of making their flash pulses more effective. if you have a lot of JSA, SEF and Ariadna locally then the value of the package increases exponentially. You dont need the engineer because at the end of the day you dont care if transductors go down they are disposable so you can save the 20ish points, if you take an engi its normally because to have the reaktion or the tsyklons which are an actual investment that is worth reviving. the transductor and stempler package should really only cost you 30ish points. Also defining that package in the way you have implies its a do nothing 55 point, point sink when they all provide orders and can meaningfully impact the table. A reaktion does one thing, die, taking with it at least two enemy orders and some of that SWC that CJC is often starved for, all of this is only in one area. A pair of transductors and a jag defend a much larger foot print, suck up more of your opponents orders as well as provide other utilities, also like i said before they are dirt cheap so them dying isnt a huge loss and odds are your opponent spent more orders on a far more expensive unit to do so. 15/17 orders is pretty much the sweet spot for CJC i've found, and it really isnt a drawback at all, most tables are more than large enough to accommodate this easily (assuming an average/ the recommended amount of terrain). they don't take that much away from the list as most CJC lists (especially in the current season) have the majority of their strike and mission elements forward deploying so there is more space for them in the DZ. also investing in cheap models in one area means you can invest in more expensive pieces elsewhere (Like an intruder LT). Majority of factions can get a cheap camo sniper to put down a TR bot, are relatively common and providing there are no other threats or reason will probably be counter deployed to the TR bot top put it down order 1 turn 1 at no real danger to them selves. A couple of common examples that are incredibly effective at this are the Cateran, Proxy sniper, Spec. sargeant/crocman, Guilang, Hun dun, Major Lunah, Hunzakut, and thats before we get into the real jank of zero style skirmishers with sniper rifles. An ODD sniper like Armand or the Moira can do it too (hell even that new kunai is pretty good at pulling it off). Libertos, Bandits, Hardcases and other cheap disposable camo shotguns are pretty much made for this kind of thing. yes, but there is also the question of which range bands are worth contesting ion the first place? Is worth having something standing that can see and bee seen by a bunch of models and is really only useful at contesting the opposing DZ/FD, or is it better to use weapons that are ideal for contesting the areas of the table where a lot engagements happen as you and your opponent will be fighting over the objectives.
I disagree on the TR Bot dying that easily: deployed well you can get good work out of it. You can't be overly aggressive with it, which is usually the issue. Admittedly this changes it to a 3/4 order problem to put down with an additional order to kill outright. It's also more table dependent. So arguing the nuance more than the reality that the correct tool can remove them easily. I'm a big fan of Reactions in Vanilla and Bakunin but less so in CJC: I find that it doesn't add capabilities I can't get from an Alg Core with augments.
Its less that and more we have two weapons platforms competing for the same slot in the army that fill the same role I'm not saying because the FB is good therefore the ML is bad, its more they good and bad independent of each other. Its just here thanks to the rather stupid fireteam compositions that the two are directly competing for the same role and position that we get the discussion of which is better, and that then comes down to how people define better. I dont particularly use them myself outside of SP and StarCo. as there are normally better things to spend points on and they dont really fit into my current approach to reactive play. But its very rare that I find them difficult to put down outside of screwing up a range band, or if don't have the tools they tend to pretty easy to straight up ignore, though when I need to fight fair (standard BS F2F where they can fight back) they can be a bit of a headache.
It might not be an ARO in the way you're imagining it, but Wildcats can be very hard to push on. BS13, ARM2, combi+flamethrower... a lot of times you'll be on a 10 or 13 to hit, and if you don't like your odds you can burn their ass. ARM2 + Courage makes it easy to stay in suppression. Very good value for 19 points
In the current environment active turn shooting is so strong that unless you are standing up an absolutely exceptional ARO piece like a linked Kamau Sniper, you are really just offering your opponent free kills on a platter. CJC's "good" ARO pieces aren't exceptional so I wouldn't even bother with linked MB missile launcher unless you are facing a rare army that struggles to outshoot it in active (like maybe Druze or JSA). I would used linked Tskylon not for AROs but as an active turn shooter and if I did use a TR Bot I wouldn't put it on ARO duty until you've removed things that threaten it. Maybe TR Bot can protect your DZ against possible drop trooper landing in the meantime. ARO's do waste opponent orders though, so you may as well just use cheap crappy stuff since the elite stuff will die pretty much as easily. So for CJC defence I would use -Transductor zonds and the warcor for dying duty (preferably positioned so the enemy has to spend a few orders moving before they can shoot them). -Morans for area denial with their koalas -Jaguars to do close in defence with their chain rifles -Everything else cowers in total cover and hopes to survive the onslaught Hopefully, this will tie the enemy up enough that they don't get to your good stuff and then you can counter attack in your turn.
Never wanted to point this way, I might sounded more hard on those pieces than curios. As in the end all I wanted to get around was the idea behind a possible use for that trio as I do not see it in many lists yet, but to me it sounds good, at least on paper. Why not taking in count a reaktion that does work in combo with a jag itself, then ? I do think the chances offered by jaguars are not limited only to the models that have to walk up the board, but also to those assigned to be the gun line side of the list where a smoke to cover your blind flank could help mitigate the sort of unhappy surprises ( consider all of that in an ideal world with an ideal table and ideal dices rolls ). when you talking about the list strikers you mean bandits, morans AD unit, and so on ? If that the case, there still remain to think off any possible Intruder, Fireteams, bots like the lunokhod that could help as a defensive piece, etc ... I got your point and I think I just have to practice more around the deployment phase, still I do consider that when it comes to those numbers, the table it is the last judge regarding what you could be able to save and what not, in the unlucky event you do not get the first turn ( where the case ) or if you end up facing several circular templates. For me the difference in the last game, it was all due to the chance there was some buildings that was possible to access from the DZ where to keep covered the models. If not that, being behind total cover does not always grant the chance to be safe from a volley of fire. For the rest I really appreciated your analysis and I am glad you took the time to write that much in dept about what your game style. It really does help people like me, get a better understanding of the game, from what it could be a different angle. How so ? An Alguacil Core does not generate the same amount of fire, at least as much as I can think off it. In order to do so, you do need to have all the models visible to the same target, and where the case, you might not risking to get someone killed for that ?
It's not about the quantity of fire, but about the effort required to remove it. A BS11 B4 ARM 0 ARO is comparable in effort to remove to a BS14 B2 SSL2 ARM 1 ARO. The maths goes slightly to the TR Bot, particularly since MML2 is an option but I'm almost certainly already paying for the Alg Fireteam. Next factor in the fact that the Alg ARO will have a Daktari within 4" to heal it for +4pts whereas a similar (admittedly better capability due WIP15 and Unc 2) costs 18pts I probably don't need otherwise. This means that the Alg ARO has longevity that a TR Bot lacks unless I really pay for it. But realistically, these days I'm choosing a Tsyklon Feurbach or MB ML instead: these are BS15/16 B2 SSL2 ARM3/4 AROs so are significantly more difficult to remove than a TR Bot. What you really lose by taking a linked ARO instead of a TR Bot is a different attack vector. But the way most people build CJC that isn't usually a problem.
MOBILE CORE, Tsyklon with MML2 shot normaly at 18s B3 active 2 ARO... plus Lupe's Panzerfaust 15s, plus Brigada HMG 16s all with SSL2...have 4 troops can Flashing, have an MSR Intruder for counter Camo/ODD troops if its necesary, well as you can see with this Core can do anythingh. Support troops Tomcat, Bandit, Moran to take control or make chaos on table. Have variants with massacre haris, or Mc Murrought. Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor ────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 INTRUDER (X-Visor) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 43) MOBILE BRIGADA Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33) MOBILE BRIGADA HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42) TSYKLON Feuerbach, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 34) LUPE BALBOA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Panzerfaust, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) JAZZ & BILLIE undefined. (0.5 | 24) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) BILLIE Flash Pulse, E/Mauler / Electric Pulse. (0 | 6) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) BANDIT Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 28) GROUP 2 2 1 WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TOMCAT Engineer Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, D-Charges + 1 Zondcat / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26) ZONDCAT Electric Pulse. (4) 6 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army
You need massacre for a valid jag haris. I would not play him defensively, that seems to be too much of an investment. But I play single Panzerfaust Jags from time to time if I want a scary ARO for cheap.
I'm aware but at the same time its hardly uncommon to keep strike pieces back so that they will have greater impact later in the game. I'm more talking as a turn one disposable defense that after the PFs either die or empty the weapons, then form a standard haris and move out later in the game. 53/1.5 isn't that expensive and if its there to support an assault core I've been experimenting with linked disposable defense pieces lately (disposables are good, but more burst more better), and completely forgot this option in CJC.
They will perform ok as they have some hidden stats in favor for the ARO role: Dogged to keep fighting, Courage to keep standing, PH13 for emergency dodge. Keep in mind that that they also carry an adhesive launcher which covers the bad range of the Panzerfaust so no need to deploy deep into the dz. Maybe keep another 10 Pts jag around to reform the link. I myself prefer disposable cheap aros to retain more punch for the active turn.
Why not go Core? SSL2 is the best defensive ability. And oh, you can do this AND the Haris. Because 8/9 'Jags' is awesome! I have run relatively successfully, a 4 Jag Haris (with a replacement for the Panzerfaust that goes down), so you can swing into an aggressive active even after getting value from the Reactive. You can also layer in an Intruder MSR, because the Jag Core allows you to set up Smoke throwers, and very little will willingly risk facetanking a Panzerfaust so that they can oppose the Smoke toss effectively.
Never had much sucess with them... but the idea of layering smoke/panzerfaust shots with an Intruder ARO behind is intriguing. I guess my style went more to using those 0.5 SWC into Morans or Bandits, and the Intruder HMG being an agressive piece. I do love the Jaguar/Sr Massacre Haris for a super aggresive second turn push into the middle line.
Which missions, as for your experience, had paid back the most for such a setup ? If not keeping in consideration Lupe or Dak, none of them it is a specialist so the idea behind it I guess it is more about go and do mayhem up to middle field. As something @Tourniquet mentioned in the CJC sticky post, talking about McMurrough, don't you think stuff like a camo shotgun could be a show stopper for it ?
It's good. I use that a lot, not always with panzerfausts but with the Jag haris or Lupe in a Wildcat Haris.
The only show-stopper for them is MSV2, and even them, Massacre has Eclipse smoke. They can approach anyone and engage in CC if needed. What they need is somebody like an intruder or a linked big gun or a Bandit run to open a hole, then zip midfield. As for missions, anything that requires holding the mid´-area, especially if it involves TAGs or points there (so a juicy HI team is forced to move forward for example). A Massacre Haris + 2xJaguars is 47 points, so the cost of a premium HI, wields a DA or AP+E/M Melee weapon, hitting with Burst 3, Strenght 16 if you can get all 3 in contact. If not, they provide different kinds of smoke to shield you. Basically, you hold them out of view, just throwing smoke for the intruder in turn one, if needed. I typically reserve a Bandit to do Turn 1 cleanup as a sacrificial piece. Turn 2, when the enemy already had to advance pieces to contest the midfield, go to town. If the Haris is somehow broken and the Jaguars dont bite it, remember they have an extra Impetous Order in turn 3. Plus being Dogged, so they can absorb one hit and keep Move+CC if they reach a link (I did that once and it was hilarous).
