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Cover for mines?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Foxbringer, Jun 2, 2020.

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  1. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Today one of our players found this interesting Q&A in infinitythegame instagramm page:

    Q: Do mines get cover?
    A: No, only trooper can get cover.
    [​IMG]

    But this isn't written in rules. In any requirements and effects of cover(in N3 or CodeOne(so as in N4, I think)) there are words only about "target of BS attack"(and couple of additional sentences(better written in CodeOne) about troopers, but they don't contradict with statements about other possible targets)

    "If the target is in Partial Cover, the attacker will apply a -3 MOD to their BS Attack Roll and the target of the BS Attack reduces the Attack Damage by 3 for Saving Roll purposes, if the Roll was necessary."

    This wording means, that any target(troopers, deployable weapons/equipment, etc.) can be in cover(partial or total). And now we discover mines and shoot different deployables with additional -3 for cover(if they are in it, of course)

    IF this Q&A is correct, that means that even unsuccesfull discover against mine in camouflaged state in cover will tell me, that this marker is exactly a mine because of lack of cover. This is not as interesting, reduces the role of mines on the table(as well as closed information in general) and, in my opinion, is an additional complication we want to avoid while playing(and learning) this game.

    So, @HellLois , how should we play in N3, CodeOne(and in N4 if wording won't change)?
    IF Q&A is correct or you wanted to say only about noncamouflaged equipment, don't you mind to change wording in at least N3/CodeOne/N4 pdf/wiki/FAQ?

    P.S. Also Ambush Camouflage is not a trooper and doesn't have "...are considered real troopers in regards to checking LoF." like Decoy(state) and Holoecho have, so regarding to this Q&A they also doesn't have cover.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    N3:

    If Mine's can't get cover because they're not a Trooper then you can only declare a BS Attack against them with a Deactivator or Minesweeper.

    BS Attacks usually require the target to be a Trooper, Deactivator and Minesweeper are specific exceptions to that general rule.

    To explain that logic:

    Enemies are a subset of trooper. As @HellLois points out Mines are not Troopers and therefore are not enemies. In which case they're not generally eligible for BS Attacks.
    /RAW

    However, it's easier to accept that by this point it is entirely obvious that CB occasionally uses trooper when figure would be more appropriate. Which is how everyone plays this one (mostly, because, as you point out Cover only requires a target not a Trooper who is a target).

    @HellLois can explain his reasoning here. But I'd be surprised if he was making a ruling relevant to N3. Re: whether or not Mines get cover in Code One, I'd recommend asking in the Code One Rules forum.
     
    #2 inane.imp, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Also, it raises an interesting issue for Discover vs a Camo'd Mine. Does the Camo Marker get Cover?

    Tl;dr I think he derped.
     
  4. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, didn't understand you clearly. Everyone plays that noncamouflaged mines(other deployables) doesn't have cover. Am I right?
    Edit: in our community they have.
    Until N4 release, I think, it should be stated. Because of big N3 league in tabletop simulator, for example.(and because wordings in N3 and CodeOne are same in that particular case)

    Tl;dr Wrote about it too.
     
    #4 Foxbringer, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  5. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Everyone* plays that Mines get Cover. They're a target of an attack, which (as you point out) is what the rules say.

    Equally everyone* plays that you can declare BS Attacks against Hostile Figures not merely Enemies.

    * That is "everyone I've seen/heard discussing this both on the forums, other social media or in person".
     
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  6. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
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    As stated in CodeOne a

    Trooper
    Game element with Attributes which belongs to the Army List of any player, able to contribute and spend Orders, as well as declaring and receiving Attacks.

    so

    Types of Cover
    Total Cover
    Total Cover completely blocks the attacker's vision of his target, obstructing any LoF to their Silhouette.

    A Trooper is in Total Cover when one or more scenery items completely blocks LoF to its Silhouette.

    Partial Cover
    Partial Cover does not allow the attacker to see the whole Silhouette of their BS Attack's target.

    A Trooper is in Partial Cover when they are in contact with a piece of scenery that partially obscures their Silhouette.
     
  7. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    So it is intended that when calculating the WIP check for the Discover roll, the active player will be instantly alerted to the nature of the camo marker being a piece of equipment (mine) because he must be informed by the reactive player that he does not factor in cover to his discover check, thereby nullifying the need to discover the marker to learn what it is?
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I assume this answer on Instagram was in context of CodeOne and that cover for Mines and Ambush Camo still apply in N3?
    BS Attack doesn't require the target to be a Trooper. There's one line in the effects which actually doesn't do much, all the other lines in BS Attack effects and requirements can be read in exclusion or discrete addition of the first which makes a mine targetable by BS Attack.
    Additionally, Minesweeper and Deactivator are both BS Attacks.

    Well... sure... now you know it's not a Trooper, but unless you succeed the roll you won't be able to do anything about that Marker if it's placed in an uncomfortable spot.
     
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but it seems counter intuitive that you are given what is private information without actually needing to reveal the marker.
     
  10. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're not wrong... but not right as well IMO.

    My first gripe with HellLois' ruling is that it defeats the idea of Camo marker state. You don't need to succeed on Discover to find out what is under the marker (I mean, sure, you won't know WHICH trooper is under it).

    The second is actually more of an inconvenience. The owner of mines most likely will have both troopers and mines under Camo, and keeping track of whether you should apply Cover or not WILL get tedious. Especially for new players. Also I foresee a lot of questions from them about the reasoning, like "Why this Camo gets Cover, but this doesn't?". I mean, it's really not obvious from the gameplay perspective, even though it's spelled out pretty well in the rules.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Again, I'm assuming this is a ruling for CodeOne, meaning you should already know whether it's a mine or not. We'll have to wait and see regarding N4.

    Also, this is assuming that Mines are even meant to be such good decoys. This could be a way of reducing the efficacy of camo spam somewhat, seeing how camo spam tends to be proportionally stronger the more Markers you place.
     
  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Mahtamori sure if you ignore one of the effects of the skill. [emoji14]

    @psychoticstorm this is discussing a Code One rule. Can you please move it to the relevant forum. The continued discussion about how to resolve Discover vs a Mine that is a Camo Marker is relevant.

    So, the real question is "is Cover Open information?", or instead is it revealed at Resolution?

    IE. Alice declares Discover vs Bob the Camo Marker. Bob is in SIL contact with a Scenery element that obscures LOF from Alice to Bob. Alice's player asks Bob's "Does Bob have Cover? "

    How is Bob's player to respond?
    A. "Yes/No" depending on whether or not Bob is actually a Trooper
    B. "Guess you'll find out at Step 5 when we determine MODs :)"
     
    #12 inane.imp, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    According to yourself, it's B.
    I mean, that is if you still stand by what you said about private information regarding Holo1 and 360°. :wink:
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    What is this Holo 1 and 360 you speak of? I'm not aware of them existing in Code One.

    In N3 my answer is "It's irrelevant, LOF is Open Information so it's open whether or not 1/3rd of the model is obscured by a scenery element that it's B2B with and every target gets to claim Cover." :wink:
     
  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I'm glad we agree then. I'm equally as glad that you've changed your mind on this matter and now accept the fact that a Holo1 trooper, pretending that it's a trooper with 360° visor, is forced to answer truthfully when one asks whether or not they have LoF on their back arc. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, mate, if you read that effect very literally. The most destructive reading you could get away with here is that it becomes unknown which attribute you use when attacking a Mine, unless the weapon specifies this (e.g. Technical Weapon). This is, of course, disregarding that the rules refer to non-Troopers as enemies in a few places (e.g. in Mines "must trigger when an enemy figure or Marker" and "Impersonation Markers (IMP-1 and IMP-2) do not trigger enemy Mines").
    And additionally, if what you wrote is true, then Deactivator and Minesweeper wouldn't work, either, because they both are BS Attacks that would need to target enemies.

    This is luckily solved in CodeOne where an Enemy is a "game element" and not a Trooper.

    I'm not convinced LOF is information at all as LOF is circumstantial to the units in question. The unit's LOF arc is open information provided the unit is not hidden under a Marker, but their actual LOF depends on where enemy miniatures are located and is not a piece of information owned by the miniature itself. As such, I'm inclined to say LOF either exists or doesn't, but it is not information that can be shared nor hidden, it is completely owner-less so a player can do their best to check it at any time without the opponent being allowed to prevent or obscure it while at times the rules will force players to check it for the sake of order resolution.

    Basically, it's the same as MODs. Which you find out during resolution, but nothing prevents you from estimating them prior to that. In both cases the only real unknown is range, which you're not allowed to pre-measure.
     
  17. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Deployable Weapon
    Game element with Attributes that may belong to the Army List of a player, and is capable of performing and receiving Attacks.

    Target

    Game element capable of being targeted by Attacks, and effects from Skills or Equipment.


    Thank you for fast answer, but the second sentence about Trooper doesn't prevent mines(or other deployables) to be in cover. It just specifies partial cover for troopers(which was already written in the first more complex sentence). So, I think, in N4 it should be written better than in N3 to specify, if you really wanted this, that deployables can not receive cover.

    Edit: I really disagree with the ban on cover for deployables as I mentioned previously. This won't be so interesting and create many problems.

    P.S. My apologies, maybe this thread should be in CodeOne forum, but it is still a problem in N3.(but I'm glad to hear from inane.imp, that everyone still plays that deployables have cover)
     
    #17 Foxbringer, Jun 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Holo1 is not a marker state
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It is not, but all information regarding the trooper underneath is still Private. I limited my response to Marker because inane.imp is slanting the convo towards C1.
     
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  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    LOF is still open information though
     
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