I think that's what he meant yes. Your cheapest barebone zhanshi defensive fireteam is 17pts over the "same" alguacile fireteam, because of the dreaded CC-tax and weird AVA 4 with a 23pts KHD Tian Gou being the cheapest filler. And 17pts is a lot of points in White Banner, you can get yourself 3 monks with those points! Wether a full zhanshi fireteam would be interesting or not is another matter, but one could argue it would have been nice to at least have the choice. Also Jing Quo duo is really, really nice. Very useful to keep a monk in reserve for some late game button pushing/objective rushing without eating through your command tokens every turn.
I'm curious about the viability of Liang Kai. Since I see monks as smoke grenades beatsticks, the fact he doesn't pack them makes me reluctant to try him. Care to share your experiences with him a bit more?
The answer to me is don't run a purely defensive core link. Have a plan to refill it after the ML gets shot and push the link/jammer into the middle of the table, even if it's something as cheap as Lei Gong leading them forwards to do some work. I have also been spitballing some potential ideas for N4 when the Hundun gains the hidden deployment GROUP 1 5 ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Red Fury / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1 | 27) The idea is to present your opponent with a potential trap. Do they engage the sacrificial but extremely annoying very cheap burst 2 WIP16 flash pulse? But if they do, what happens if potentially multiple HD HRLs start popping out and taking shots at something important while still running a real risk of getting stunned for a turn. If they decide it's not worth asking the question and ignore or bypass it you take the link and run at your opponent with an extremely cheap B5 Redfury and cause damage with that. GROUP 2 3 ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 16) Posing a similar question with a 3 man core link. Yeah that ML might not be the most dangerous ARO piece at B2 BS11 but you have to consider you might be fighting him and some unexpected friends at the same time. Do you feel like taking those risks? I think a good part of building WB lists is going to make sure you either conceal some SWC to make your opponent play cautiously around the Hundun, or you simply don't run it to max to get a similar effect. The thing I've liked most about looking at WB is that it's a sectorial that doesn't immediately scream HURRRRRR GET CORE LINK HMG/SPITFIRE BEAT OPPONENT OVER THE HEAD WITH IT. It's got more options outside of that to the point where I legitimately consider not running a core link and just playing with Haris and Duos. Even if I could take dirt cheap 5 man core zhanshi link with a ML, I'm not convinced I always want to commit 1.5 of my SWC to that.
I've found him to be very worthwhile in both vanilla and white banner. Typically I'll have monks nearby to throw smoke for him, but if they fail, he's only regular impetuous so can restrain himself at no cost. At 22pts with a regular order, he's just about cheap enough that he doesn't feel like a waste if he never really does anything because you had other more immediate attack vectors, but when he does find an opening to attack he usually carves out something important. In the games I've played him in so far, he's done things like: advanced upfield early using his FD1 + impetuous then just chilled out for a turn while other models engaged, then on the second and third turns blitzed the backline to kill a sophotect and two celestial guard. He jumped into melee with the sophotect to take her out, but engaged the celestial guard first with his mimetism and shotgun while he closed. been my first-turn problem solver against a spiral list with a hyper-aggressive draal marksman who'd tried to shoot all my impetuous models then gutsed back into elevated total cover after taking hits. Liang Kai was the model with the mobility skills to go in after it and kill it before it could do a second turn of damage. been the right model in the right place at the right time after I possessed a jotum but my opponent triaged the damage by hitting it with a volley of stun rounds and flash pulses when it activated. I moved the jotum forward instead to push its silhouette up to block a doorway, on the other side of which I moved forward Liang Kai to be in base to base. When possession flipped the next turn with a command token, the Jotum was in melee with a model it had almost no chance to defeat and which my opponent couldn't otherwise draw LOF to. He went on to kill the Jotum and smash up some key scoring models to seal the deal. The fact that he can gunfight a lot of targets thanks to the combination of mimetism and pretty good discount guns, and survive a combi rifle hit, opens up attack angles for him that would be one-way trips for a shaolin, which is nice. He also 'stages' himself (that is to say, puts himself in position to attack) nicely thanks to his FD1 and impetuous. Overall he's a bit like if McMurrough and a Dashat Libertos had a lovechild, with some of the strengths and weaknesses of both. Edit: I apologise for the metal image of a horrific crime against nature fish-dog-person lovechild.
Think of him like paying for a slightly premium end Krakot that always rolls super jump on meta-chem.
Beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing. I'm really looking forward to trying him out. Thanks for the input guys.
No need to test Liang kai now. In code one he has MA4 while you need 5 for +1B. Unless its changed he will be crap in n4, saldy we didnt know that before preordering his exclusive miniature :(
Nah, for most melee fighters current MA3 is where it's at, and new MA4 is just that but on steroids. Just in case, I've checked on the dice calculator and it seems that +1B doesn't do much over +3/-3 +3DMG for an EXP CC weapon, though it doesn't account for the new crit mechanic. If anything I'm more worried by his DA CCW in code one, but even with that he's still a pretty good brawler.
The dice roller doesn't work for C1 purposes, particularly not for melee, but don't you think you're over-reacting if you conclude that Liang Kai is terrible because he will move from a roughly 90% win rate to merely 85% kill rate versus incompetent targets while remaining more or less equally potent versus competent targets?
Yeah, Liang Kai losing an ounce of muscle is not something I'm too bothered about. His kit is great, and he'll still be very good at everything he's meant to set out to do. Losing NWI for C1 is definitely a way harder blow, but I imagine that'll be coming back for N4 anyway, so I'm not to concerned here.
The more I play WB; the more I like it. It does offer so much diversity and fun, and I am quite surprised about Zhanshi ML's threat tbh. One thing I miss is that I wanted to play this sectorial with Jujak, which is quite hard to fit in even compared with Kunai (which proved itself quite good, tbh.)
I feel a mistake was that Qiang doesn't count as a Shang Ji. Then could have him as the Shang Ji with Jujak. But then again, they would have a a sectoral where Shang Ji are almost never played. I've tried several times to make a pain train list of Jujak and the Shang Ji just kind of ruins them. If he had teh 6-2 move like the C1 i'd be a bit happier. But he's so expensive it makes it harder for choosing troops for the rest of the force.
I've been ignoring the movement difference completely as I don't consider that an issue at all but it's still impossible to make decent lists for most missions with Shang-Ji in them due to the costs involved. The fact that Jujak are also slightly costlier than Zuyong also makes it very very difficult to mimic what I did with Shang-Ji in my InfoSec lists for IA. Base cost of Jujak is so high that it's them that needs another Fireteam filler to lower the cost, not for them to be the cost-lowering unit... I think, maybe, if Jujak and Shang-Ji lost around 3-5 points each it might be doable, as C1 hints with more expensive and more complex units, they might have enough leeway to build around. Then, of course, you start wrestling with the fact that Jujak kind of have profiles ideal for a stand-alone Fireteam unit and you sort of have to choose between iconic Jujak or functional Jujak when they're the hangers-on to Shangers :/ I think I'm never going to shake the feeling that Shangers should simply be removed from the sectorial and their fireteam options be given to Jujak...
Amen, the Shang Jis where are imported from Invencibvle and make no sense in white banner. They are just cannibalizing the jujak role and the fireteam options it should have
I finally got in a game on Table Top simulator with White Banner against Corregidor. The mission was Transmission Matrix. I need pretty horrible lol. Some of it was just bad dice though. Jing Qo shot 4 times at the enemy HVT and it made it’s dodges with crits or even made armor saves. The same sort of thing happened with the Ye Mao, I redrummed Jazz 4 or 5 times in the active and more in ARO. Even with the Tinbot I couldn’t kill her. I put her unconscious for a little while before the doctor healed her. After that she Maestroed the YM. I know I need more time trying it out but here’s some first impressions. 1. What’s the point of the Jing Qo Duo with a Shaolin? You lose the Impetuous order due to being in a link. Then you can’t use his irregular order or it will break the link. So I’m actually down two orders! That’s just stupid. I had more luck with a shaolin working with Liang Kai but just being near him. 2. The YM with a Shang Ji Tinbot can be really powerful. First there’s the -6 to hack with Tinbot but then he has BTS6 as well. Doesn't help against crits though lol. Oh well. But still, he was perfect for the mission. I wish I had taken two KHD rather than a FO. 3. I like the Hundun Heavy rocket. He can have a lot in +3 range and then surprise shot on that. I just need to get a little better using him. 4. I think the Tian Gou jammer would be better in a link that’s moving forward. If it’s in a static team, he’s never going to be able to use the Jammer. 5. Jing Qo is pretty good in CC but will never beat McMurder! I did get a wound on him but still it was futile. I really wish YJ had a CC beast like that but alas, not to be. The White Banner Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 8 2 3 JING QO MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, AP+DA CC Weapon. (0 | 39) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) LIANG KAI Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 22) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 16) ZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) GROUP 2 4 1 HÙNDÙN (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 26) SHÀNG JÍ (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43) YĚ MĀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) YĚ MĀO (Forward Observer) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
It gives you a smoke grenade that you a guaranteed not to lose to impetuous making it run into a firelane "Losing" orders is relative to the amount of orders you spend on the link. If you spend 3 orders moving Jing Quo up the table to do things, you also spend 3 orders moving the monk around as well and vice versa for spending orders on the monk to throw smoke and moving Jing around. If I spend 3 orders moving Jing Quo to the middle of the table, then I have effectively spent an extra 3 orders via this link, putting me at a net gain of +1 order. The link is disposable. Unlike a bigger or more expensive link there's no great need to maintain the link status. Once it reaches an optimal position it's completely reasonable to dispose of the link and allowing the monk to run off and cause problems on his own.
Smoke and second burst on an antenna killer in Looting and Sabotaging (realistically the only place where you field her - also maybe Armory) or just smoke and second burst against big targets or CC pros or a glorified auxbot that you can throw ahead while jinq qo is behind the corner You have played against Corregidor and Jammer is the only thing that can stop McMurrough from ravaging your DZ in active
My bet is that N4 will change some aspects about how links work. With the current rules, this duo is a little wierd. Try it on a Ye Mao Haris or on a Shang ji one. It really helps making the haris more durable. On a zhansi core it find it more a tax that an asset. I agree, but it's not Jing fsult that Mc Murder since the free buff with berserker is the strongest CC unit from all the game. In general WB is in a good CC position, not at JSA levels but good at cost utility. An outside the damm tactical wi dow that seems to be the normal in precovid time, spamming shaolins is still a great option
