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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And it does. MSV2-3 for example trumps Smoke / Camo shenanigans.

    My idea of solving this would be not allowing "scissors" to stomp over the "paper" and "rock" over the "scissors". Instead just allow them to have additional types of interactions between each other and not necessarily as powerful as "another variant of possesion". Hacking could reveal some type of Private Information, for example, scoured from comms nets. Low-tech should be allowed cunning preparation, Batman style, something to do with the table itself, for example - either setting traps or additional modes of deployment (see MRRF's Mechanized Deployment), etc.
     
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  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, as I said, we will not get to a common place about what hacking should be. But please, don't force wrong logical conclusions. I said that HI-tech-focused lists don't need to have advantage against low-tech lists "per se". Why should them be? Both of them have ways to deal against the other. Hacking is just a tool in there, and as a tool, it has advantages and drawbacks. The same for Hard-focused lists, they could have advantages (a HI-focused list is usually not prone to get their troopers killed by shock and their attributes usually are higher for example), and dissadvantages; and hacking is a dissadvantage there, so a hacking focused list is an extreme list that focused on the dissadvantage of the previous one. Extreme lists usually get that problem: they might have more advantages than dissadvantages, or the other way. Early in this edition (and also previous editions) HI-focused lists were not viable, but the meta we have now make them. And that is with or without hacking

    is as if you get to the conclussion that every faction without a jammer should win against morat because morat are inmune to jammer. That "logical conclusion" is wrong. Jammer is a tool, with its advantages and drawbacks (I am not entering in how much of each is).

    we might discuss how "hard" a counter can be, but I wouldn't say something as absolute as "nothing" regarding Infinity's dessign. Jammer is a counter to several kind of units/tactics. Especulative fire usually is a counter against the troopers with jammer, and then there is veteran, which nulifies both jammer and oblivion (I would call this a hard counter). MSV against camo, Shock against 1W troopers... inmunity shock against shock... total inmunity against almost every ammunition out there... there are a lot of examples of counters, but the "hard" they are, is up to every person (I think for me a "hard counter" is not as "hard" as you might refer to). Also, the fact that a counter is there doesn't mean that is needed to success.

    possession in a single order is something you will see in only a handfull of games in a entire edition. Most of the time you will need an entire turn for it (cleaning path, bringing the hacker/repeater and try on), a really bad move from the enemy (moving directly into zoc of a marker), a lucky move to a TO ZoC, or be allready loosing and having not much options (in which, that hack would not be a game-changer at all). Getting a crit from a combi 3 times in a row can also be a game-deciding, but nobody out there will think that is something that can happen much times. I've lost a szalamander in active twice in the first order, dead by a linked feuerbach aro and failing all its arm rolls once, and another against a maghariba exp, failing all again. Those are anecdotical situations, jet I can say that never I got any of my TAGs possesed, not once. I have possesed in active turn several times, and it was not worth none of them because I had not enought orders to make it worth, and next turn, a command token with no roll and free.

    But I agree that the new hacking in C1 is promissing. The fact that we could add malus to the reset is a good point IMO. Spotlight in aro is a good thing, and will make that people that want to go hacking, bring several ones to force several statuses at once. But the boost comes mainly from a nerf to reset, not a boost to hacking (a little buff to spotlight, but if it and isolation can be taken out with reset, it gets a nerf on isolation, so in the end is more of a sidestep for hacking). But on the other side, a single AHD will do even less work than now. We will see how it works then, maybe the points get also changed, the power of the programs, and so.
     
    #2462 Armihaul, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    *counts the number of units with MSV3 on fingers*
    *holds up the total tally to Nuada*
    Oh dear. Hope you're not British...
    Btw, one of those units belongs to a faction that's really strong in the hacking game, so that leaves...
    *folds one of the fingers*
    Oh... whoops... My apologies, hope you're not American.

    Jokes aside, we both know that MSV3 is a particularly bad example because almost no one has it and those who do don't like it because it makes the units involved very expensive. We also know armihaul didn't mean MSV3 as a form of "high-tech" because he wrote fairly clearly that it's HI and TAGs (and possibly REMs). We also know that low tech doesn't mean camouflage partly because of the large number of non-hackable units without camouflage and partly because of a significant amount of high-tech camouflage units where MSV3 gets frankly even better efficiency than against Ariadna's spam.

    Btw, MSV2 isn't very good against camouflage. It's better than nothing, but generally it's mostly a coin flip.
     
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  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, I mainly refer to HI/REM/TAG because is what can be usually hacked by almost everyone. MSV can also be affected by white noise, but there are only a few that can do it. So you are right in that with "hi-tech" I was refering to that (Even if the game has more things we can call Hi-tech, they are just unnafected by hacking).

    Also, there is the thing that, even if most of factions have access to hackable things, some of those hackable units are dessigned for being hard to counter with "normal means" (TOs, ODDs, MSV are the most tipical, but not the only ones). Some are stronger than other, but I think we will agree that there are some that cannot be dealt with a direct approach, and not all factions have access to all the tools dessigned for that. But seems to me wrong that a parachutist with a flamer and a normal shotty guy would almost allways be a more effective option than hacking, yet the hacking is the one getting the "please nerf" allways. If a tool dessigned expresedly to deal with that kind of troopers need so much work (orders) and specialized lists, and even with that, it is performing poorly than other not so "dessigned for that role", then I think it should be clear that something is wrong
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Hacking is getting "please nerf" because it is mostly what is responsible for making sure that the HI with AD is the worse choice between a Liu Xing and a Tiger - for the points you invest in them.

    However, I think you're reading selectively, as Hacking is often also a hot topic for "please make AHD better against literally anything else" (so to speak) and often at least on the Yu Jing forums we speculate with how hacking could be a good conduit for addressing some of the short-comings of HI.

    It is very far from a This Versus That, it's all interlocked and synnergistic. This is why I'm excited for the new C1 hacking which opens up new targets, meaningful results, while not being overly oppressive. It's allowing you to use otherwise blind angles for meaningful effects.
     
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  6. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    I think you missed one...unless there's something with three fingers and Britain.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ah, a filthy alien invader! Yes, I did miss one, usually when I see that on the table it's one of the HD+ profiles. But at least the single-finger still makes sense.
     
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  8. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    The problem with hacking (AHD in particular) is that they cost a bunch of points and the opponent can render those points mostly wasted by simply choosing not to take hackable units. This is especially a problem because there are a number of factions where not taking hackable stuff doesn't even handicap you. The extreme example is Ariadna - they have almost no hackable models, but are still a very competitive faction. Any time you bring an AHD in a game against Ariadna, you're essentially playing with a (small) points and SWC handicap.

    MSV has some similar issues, but probably less extreme. The increased prevalence of Mimetism on units people want to take does increase the value of MSV. MSV 2 and 3 are frequently still somewhat questionable investments; MSV 2 is only better than MSV 1 if there's a TO/ODD model in the enemy's force (that's actually at positions where your MSV unit is relevant) and either army has smoke grenades (again, and that the MSV 2 unit is positioned in a relevant manner). In this scenario, an MSV 2 sniper in a fireteam with good lines of fire from the deployment zone is one of the best ways of optimizing that value.

    MSV 3 seems like it ought to be a "hard" counter to camo spam, but it's not. For starters, it's only on three units, all of which are expensive. Secondly, you still have to waste orders declaring discover or making discover AROs. While being guaranteed to pass your roll is great, it's still a losing proposition on order economy, especially when you take into account that your average camo model costs a third or fewer points than an Aquila/Charonitd/Asura. A 20-odd point camo model can still move-move to cross a gap being watched by one of these with impunity, and if they're in suppressive fire they have to drop that state in order to be able to discover. Similarly, if they want to move up and attack camo markers they tend to have to declare two orders; one to move-discover, and a second to shoot. Marker states are about bleeding your opponent of orders and forcing bad ARO choices, and they still do that against MSV 3.
     
  9. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Poor choice of faction, Ariadna packs more T2 and AP then any other faction so really has no issue dealing with high end threats (outside of a few outliers), as well as just being able to force damage through by sheer weight of dice and bodies most of which are under a marker.


    Ariadna is basically the poster example of why low tech is just a strict advantage in the game currently as they get a frankly stupid amount of incredibly cheap and effective pieces providing a bucket load of orders with no appreciable downside.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's why I picked the faction ;)

    There is no rock-paper-scissor to justify why hacking should stomp all over HI/TAGs
     
  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    With the removal of falling (in C1 at least), and providing that ISO follows the same framework as IMM and can be reset out (Something I also hope happens for disabled) of then the power level of the three most problematic programs essentially go from single handedly removing those pieces from the game to just very strong.
     
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  12. SpectralOwl

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    Code One does seem to support the idea that Hackers will always be doing something, so there's a possibility that hacking will be hitting low-tech lists just as hard as high ones. Also a chance that, with the timeskip, Ariadna and Tohaa will have teched up enough that they can't opt out of the Hacking game so easily and get some native Hackers themselves. I'd love the chance to run my MRRF a little more on the elite mid-tech side, so that I could play infowar properly and field a sane Limited Insertion list.
     
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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    On one hand I don't want the ariadnan identity lost, but on the other I'd love to see some more middle-ground tech. I think that's under-explored in Infinity. And after all, Lost Planet has some of my favorite mechs.[​IMG]
     
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  14. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    I do think the ariadna hacking device will still work great against all kinds of HI/TAGs. With the crit changes it becomes even more of an upgrade in comparison to the normal HMG. At least with the changes seen so far i doubt Ariadna will face major problems.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is a mechanical issue with what you're suggesting which is spending orders on and activating a hostile miniature that belongs to your opponent.

    I'd be happier if temporary possession, if it remains, was just that - temporary. Get to immediately spend one single order on it.
    This should be a huge advantage, screwing over order efficiency, denying cover, even putting a non-melee TAG into melee.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It is temporary, providing the opponent still has command tokens. though giving the TAG the chance to reset at the end of every order (saw someone mention it previously but remember who), could help. most of the time you only ever spend one or two orders on it anyway, usually to shoot at something from an unexpected angle or to run it out of a scoring zone or off a point (which is the primary thing I usually end up using it for).
     
  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    giving access to a free reset after each order is just like killing and already underused option. With something like that, AHD and HD should cost 2-3 points and 0 SWC as much. If they cannot be used ofensivelly, they are just a "waste a few extra orders" dudes, and a even less nuisance than the IMM-1 we have now. Why? because each order would be giving a free normal roll to reset with a maximus of a -3 because if you got the TAG imm or iso, you could also not spend orders there.

    Again, I cannot agree with this. All claims for Liu Xing and Tiger are because he is a 1W NWI HI without shock inmunity. Hacking is the problem for all AD:CJ troopers, and that skill is underused even against ariadna because the possibility of failing. Is a problem of AD:CJ, not hacking (which just sums up to the 1W NWI HI without SI)

    yes, there is that topic regarding AHD, which also affects normal HD (but because they have supportware and their performing in ARO, there are a lot of people that say their hacking is ok). But for each person they ask for AHD to be better, there are more people asking for nerfs (like in this post). Just see this post. Most of the changes suggested are more focused on getting out the offensive part from hacking (or making it weaker) and giving a little more "utility". Is as if people wanted for fordward observer to be rof 1 dmg 10 "because it gives too much of an advantage with the +3BS", but then the enemy needed 2 successful resets to take it off (and then we all know, they would start asking for the change to 1 reset instead because 2 is too opressive). Obviously this is an exageration, but is the kind of changes some people ask for hacking

    for some of those "changes", I would also see some other as "stealth" doesn't works against hacking (it makes not sense that someone who knows how to move can bypass sensors based on signals). Just another skill for stealth against hacking, which would bring a new way to face hacking (they would be troopers specialized against hacking) while making that some hackable units that cannot be deal easilly with normal means, have a serious weak point in hacking
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Dude, Armihaul, do you ever even look at other armies than Nomads? Liu Xing is Bioimmune. Your perception of how much effect something should have that literally shoots through walls at targets that can't shoot back in a game that's all about the targets being able to shoot back is very strange.

    No, I mean, mechanically, you'd need to change some fundamental stuff to make it work. Allowing you to declare skills with a unit that is formally not activated by you and formally doesn't belong to you violates the core order expenditure and skill declaration procedures of the game.

    Glancing at other game systems, pushing, moving, or puppeting units is a strong effect without completely mind-controlling the target and Infinity should be no different. Slightly weaker as an ARO, yes, but slightly stronger as an active turn attack compared to an IGOUGO system. This wholesale control at very little tactical depth we have now is strange to say the least.
    (And I don't even typically play TAGs)
     
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  19. SpectralOwl

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    The Exorcism program gaining the ability to be used in ARO would have a similar practical function to an out-of-sequence Reset in a TAG army with passable Hacking Area coverage and a HD or EVO, which is pretty much all of them. Killing Total Control, moving Overlord up to CLAW-3 and broadening its targets to HI, REM, TAG and Hacker (and adjusting Exorcism to match) would certainly be interesting, adding a lot of potential utility to the AHD that is difficult to set up (due to Overlord's poor MODs and the AHD's lack of effective counters to SWORD programs) and not too broken (to hit its current power level you'd have to wipe out every HD in the enemy list, or for units to be dangerously out of position) but memorable when it succeeds.
     
  20. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, that's the claim I've seen a lot, for liu xing and other IA HI (maybe he is inmune, but some IA use that anyway). I have played more than nomads (aleph, pano, ariadna and YJ, in tournaments only nomads and YJ, but yes, my main are nomads), but still not played IA. Still, the fact that AD are not so used is not because hacking, but the high fail possibility, and that is something that I've seen a lot of people agree on (as I said, they would use it more against ariadna, or against armies without normal hackers deployed, but the reasons they do not deploy them with a roll is not hacking).

    well, those other game systems have other tools, other kind of effects (when a dude can only activate once, forcing him another hit makes it more worth, specially if he cannot negate it once you success in a simple roll), and usually no "save rolls". Also, I try to see the changes in a whole, the units affected, but how factions are affected too.
     
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