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Krit and Hulang in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    In Vanilla i'd take John Hawkwood before i took Krit. Cheaper, K1 and Mono, 1.5 wounds, and more. I also think a Liberto with DEP is just as good or better than a Hulang! It's very incidental but I actually took out a Gecko with one of those!
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    John Hawkwood is a better Hulang than a Hulang
     
  3. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Just had a mirror game of White Banner and each one of us had either a Liang Kai or Jing Qo. Jing is so much closer to what I imagined the Hulang was gonna be... That boy needs better odds at dodging and a Frenzy discount badly. Although, now that we have JQ, it would probably be redundant?

    I was thinking of ways to make the Hulang more solid without giving him Smoke/Eclipse or Marker state and thought about Minelayer: it would give him some kind of perimetral defense (both to him and IA in general) and aparently is not that costly points wise (taking the Guilang as an example). What do you guys think?
     
  4. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Krit literaly was a mistake. The best thing about him is his mini ;-). He is too expensive for what he brings to the table. The E-Equipment is good but not worth the price. Three pts. more and you get Tai and she brings soo much more. If you want an engineer in the link, Haidao will do. If you need Haidao with MSV or KHD more, you still have free pts to bring the Gongcheng. I don´t see him fit, excpect when you realy want to use him in a mission, that gives engineer a bonus, the fact that only the FB Version has D-Charges makes it not better, only the expensivst version with the highes risk to get target no.1 is of good use in Counter Measures or HC. Speaking of the Feuerbach, if I want one in my link, what is basicaly a good idea, it is still too expensive and optical a disapointment, because there is no Feuerbach on him, such a imposant weapon needs to be displayed, look at the Orc.

    So he needs to get a least 5 pts. cheaper. Automedikt and courage can go, Kine down to 1 but BTS could be 6 because he is an engineer.
    Give him a SMG instead of the combi, maybe even BS down to 12. Forgot about the FB Profile.

    The Hulang also suffers from his high cost. With HD I would give him a chance. FD l2 if you have the second turn puts him in danger against chap warbands or skirmishers. He is tooled up for CC but has no skills or tricks to get there (except FD). Eclipse smoke would be a thing also. I would trade them vs the D-Charges. I think he also can life without SO or at least put this only on the SMG version.

    Both profiles need a deep overwork in N4.
     
  5. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I unfortunately thing we need to assume there's going to be no changes. The one thing we know about Shrodingers box is that there's a cat in there. Dead or alive. So Krit and Hulang are 2 possible tools we have now to take out TAGs out of many other options. We have AP/Breaker weapons, monofilament, some E/M, and EXP. Now how are they exploited?
     
  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    The funny (and sad) thing with the Hulang is that in such a short period we ended up obtaining so many troopers that outdo him in every capacity, and show what he should have been like. Between Hawkwood, Jing Qo, and Liang Kai, there are very few avenues for the Hulang to shine simply by improving his kit. He's not just bad, he's also completely redundant.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Between <unit that starts in DZ with a very similar kit> and <unit that starts in the DZ with a very similar kit and Climb+> and <unit that is cheaper, but has worse weapons, and starts in DZ and Super-Jump> the uniqueness of <unit that starts 8" outside DZ> is very limited?

    So what does those units have that Hulang doesn't?
    Hawkwood isn't hackable and has a slightly better gun.
    Jing Qo isn't hackable and has a slightly better gun.
    Liang Kai isn't hackable and has a much worse gun, is Impetuous, and is a lot cheaper.
    Unlike all of the above, Hulang also starts in a forward position and can push buttons.

    There's a pattern there.
    If Hulang became MI, not only would the Hulang get cheaper because they're paying overprice for FD2 but they'd out do Hawkwood most anywhere.
    If Hulang became MI and got Climb+ or Super-Jump, not only would Hulang start with forward deployment and become cheaper than Jing and Hawkwood, but would also effectively cover Jing's and Liang's role.

    As it is, Hulang has a range of small issues; they're somewhat immobile for the role, they've got somewhat sub-optimized stats for their equipment (low PH for grenades, but not low enough to save points for the MonoCCW), and the hackable stat means that all of the above is accentuated - it's hard to use the grenades at low stats when that opens you up to hacking, it's hard to move around the terrain when that opens you up to hacking, and there's a very significant risk for the Hulang to get countered hard if you don't get first turn.

    I honestly think that the Hulang is perfectly salvageable.

    P.s. I think Hulang may also stand the most to gain from a possible price revamp. They've got nearly all characteristics that people grump about with regards to prices. (I'm not even alone at grumping about these things!)
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    How much would frenzy discount shave off hulangs?
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Roughest estimate: 5 for Frenzy, 10 for Impetuous.
     
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  10. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    With how the C1 rules are right now, the Auto-Med-Kit on the Feuerbach Krit would be more useful. Still strongly dislike to have my engineer sitting on a roof on ARO duty. ;-)
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say that Krit becomes useful solely because Auto-Medikit becomes less awful, he's still a Zuyong at heart and at just under 50 points that's a lot to ride on a PH 12 roll. I would honestly say that if they gave C1 AMKs to Shangers that'd be a very interesting bent to them as they have the PH to make the AMK somewhat reliable while Zuyong do not, not to mention that having an AMK makes each point of ARM even more valuable.

    In all honesty, I think the Zuyong chassi is poorly suited for designing elite units around.
     
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  12. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Aside from the lower PH making his Regeneration simply less effective, Krit is also much less inclined to want to make use of it in the first place.

    AP HMG (and any other regenerator loadout, really) is going to be ride or die. It wants to get out there and cause as much damage as possible. But Krit doesn't really want to seek out combat. Despite punching below his weight, he's not an awful gunfighter, and can hold his own in a pinch, but you won't be readily throwing him into firefights.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem remains a combination with him.
    He's got one loadout without strong weapons and one with what's nominally an ARO weapon due to low burst, the weapons he's got isn't AOE so it's less potent as ARO than a HRL, Light Grenade Launchers, or Missile Launcher and Chain-colt is the weakest of DTWs, plus his gear means he wants to stay alive to facilitate recovery and missions which makes him less good on ARO duty.

    All in all, I think the change to AMK mostly makes the AMK not as much of a burden, but it's not something you can design around as much. This changes the biggest offender of his gear away from the AMK to the Feuerbach and the low PH, possibly. I think it changes things around a bit like the MSV1 on the sniper Pheasant - it's no longer what's making the unit bad, but it's not enough to make it a good unit, either.

    P.s. Maybe if Hulang got Hyper-Dynamics 1 or 2 with C1 Dodge, it might be enough to make the Hulang decent (or at least clever) without Marker state... I do expect Hulang to get slightly ess expensive more so than most high-end units (but obviously not enough to feel entitled to it)

    P.p.s. Mines in general got harder to dodge with C1, so I think what's happening is that the 0 SWC version is building up to be the strongest of his profiles with the Feuerbach being a tiny bit of a trap
     
    #33 Mahtamori, May 2, 2020
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Reincarnating the dead here. But I felt it was more appropriate than making a new thread.

    Be warned, a lot of !!!!

    Something needs to be done about this guy. I tried him out again and just not good. He is so easily taken out or nullified in some way. Mine was isolated first turn yesterday, then spot-lit then blown to bits later on. He needs something!

    The Mim-6 is great. Except it doesn't effing help when your opponents are doing things without needing to see him! Hacking, Symbio bombs, Jammers, Pheroware, etc.

    My ideas:
    Hidden Deployment

    So he's not taken off the table before you can actually use the damn thing!

    ECM-6 or Tinbot -6. Anything! Please!:weary:
    BTS 3 is not cutting it. If he's going to be in the midfield with his his hackable ass sticking out he needs something to protect him! (Mine was camo surprise hacked. I of course reset, badly, taking two hits of Oblivion with a BTS3. No chance of making it without luck).

    Better yet, make him Medium Infantry or Warband!!!!!
    I'm sick of this 1W+NWI HI shit. Why are others getting it but are not hackable HI!? My Hulang and Zhenchas are getting hacked while the Sombra, Unknown Ranger, Volkolaks, etc are walking my saying "Sucks to be you"! I really don't mind the 1W+NWI but don't effing penalize us by making them hackable. What's the point of being Heavy Infantry?!

    E/M CCW
    Mono is great against TAGs and HI but so is E/M CCW and it works on little guys too. I can't tell you how many i've gotten into CC and they easily make their 12+ ARM roll.

    +1-3 to PH.
    To go along with the better CCW, but a measly PH12 for dodge sucks! Especially for an HI in the midfield with no camo.

    Better guns
    His shooting weapons are so damn weak! Most of the time I'm in bad range with the SMG or the Combi just makes cute tinging noises off enemy armor and cover. I can live with the BS12 if he has something that can do damage. If they are supposed be taking out HI and TAGs they give us something to do it other than E/M grenades with a PH12 and Monofilament! I'm focusing more on the FD profiles. But the FTO ones could be better too.
    My suggestions
    Breaker combi
    Mutli-Rifle
    E-Marat or Zapper
    Red Fury
    Pulzar or Nanopulsar
    Minelayer with actual mines!
    Heavy Shotgun!!!!
     
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  15. YueFei23

    YueFei23 Durian Inspector

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    Krit is absolute solid gold as he is. I've been making a lot of headway with the Su Jian and Krit combo in vanilla, to the point where I think vanilla is solidly more powerful than any of the sectorials just because of that. Being able to walk a Su Jian around a corner, drop three Dam 16 templates and walk back to get repaired up is absolutely devastating. If your opponent doesn't dodge, almost anything dies after a couple of repeititions. Combine that with Krit's NCO orders to push the link across the table, multiterrain on both (see the ITS rules), the ability to clear hacking and negative states etc, and Krit is absolutely one of the top tier units in Yu Jing.

    Not so sure on the Hulang, I haven't been looking that way recently.
     
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  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing to say about Krit. He's great now. He does a lot but is not OP at all.

    It's just that damn Hulang. I don't know why I was so mad. It might be because I like CC and for a while he was the only HI with good CC without the price of a Crane. Now he's not worth thinking of. I've got so much more out of my 17pt. Beasthunter than I ever did with the Hulang. Now we have Bixie who permanently leaves him on the shelf unless I use him as a proxy.
     
  17. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I think his weakness is a game decision. He comes from IA so he has the old 1W + NWI and a low PH to make him affordable. As HI is always vulnerable to hacking, so it has usualy a good survivablity (ARM, W). The first version of Hulang was even worse. Now he evolved from a poor Shikami copy to a okay Shikami copy.

    HD could be nice but is a ninja thing, which has no place in IA. They are straight forward. In IA we have already too much MI and LI. Warbands are also not a thing in IA. Your examples of other factions are Ariadna and the Sombra which have only partly the same job as the Hulang.

    While I agree, that ECM would be nice, I think it is intended from CB that a unit like this should have a weakness. To avoid hacking you can walk past hacking zones with stealth or put in an EVO.

    I have to admit, that I used him only two times* (old version were he does nothing but died and new version were he struggled to kill something O-12 ... I don´t remember the exactly outcome, but it was not glorious.
    *) this is given that I play mostly WB and a bit ISS (I struggle to play all my factions/sectorials)

    I think they choose the mono to keep the PH low. But here I see the opportunity to buff him a little bit. While he has short to midrange BS weapons, he need a little trick to get past long range threads. Here I would give him dodge +3 or -3 (this is a bit en vouge) to show he is still an agile fighter and to help vs MSV a bit.

    He starts in the midfield and a 24" weapon with mime -6 that start in a good range is very rare in the game. While you have a high burst + mime-6 somewhere (Myrmidons since they are exists for example) it is still very uncommon.

    So yes I think he could use a little rework (again) but all in all I think he got alredy better than before and is actually usable. Just don´t expect get easily in CC.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Raveneye kinda set Hulang back. They were close to good. I don't think there's a need to move heaven and earth to make them good, either in Vanilla, IA or Dahshat. As with all melee HI, 6-2 MOV is a lot more important than for shooters and it's doubly so since Hulang FTO need to keep up with their Invinicible peers. That, considering them to be Invincibles for team bonuses, and Climbing Plus is what I'd change.
     
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  19. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    The one time I used a hulang he first bricked a jotum with e/m grenades and cut that behemoth in half je then die to a nasses, but his death was glorious.
    But he, and with him The whole sectorial of invincible army feel kinda unfinished or left out. The sectorials as a whole has bog weaknesses that are not really compensated with the links that are somehow very restricted. Some profiles are jusg left out while others are simply overshadowed by the too good Shang Jesus. Zuyong are degraded to link Fillers but have tactical awareness on now the wrong profiles, they have few specialists. Haidao still somehow has 0 bts. Yan huo has stupid linkrestrictions. Just let all profiles link already.... give The zhencha a gun capable of Shooting outside of 8 inch... how about a multi or a Red fury.
    It would go a long way. As it is I don't play invincibles even if I love The Design and the Idea, too many very hacking capable factions in my local Meta.
     
  20. Jumara

    Jumara Well-Known Member

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    The one time Iplayed a Hulang (dashat) he tried to flame a Ryuken-9 in supressive fire and force her to dodge. He went down and she stood the flames. ;D But well I guess that was unlucky. I belive on paper he is much stronger in dashat cause smoking warbands help him out a lot.
     
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