Currently it's certain armies that just totally negate doctors for me, and I don't like that. I hardly even use regen on Djan but the price hike for the shock immunity doesn't even feel expensive. It's already been discussed thou, the addition to Heavy Pistols, SMG, REM, and how common mines are is what makes it feel so common. NWI on Penny either gives her the extra bad luck padding she needs to do enough damage, or is totally useless to the random AROs that can slip thru, depending if I'm against Morats or Spiral. I don't know what I want to change but it doesn't feel good. It's not a tool people are taking as a counter, it's just there like rain sometimes. It feels like it's on me to guess if I'm against shock so I don't waste points on Intruders or Myrmidon assault troops.
Your not the only one, having the Intruder shock crit off the table the second it pokes it head out is the primary reason why they went back on the shelf and the Taskmaster and Kriza started seeing the table, good luck shocking those off the table in one go.
the intruder doesn't need to be crit off the table to be taken out (as if he couldn't miss). Daktary is not so trustworthy, and even when she heals him, he can fail again. 40+ points, but with durability of a 30-point trooper is his problem, not shock.
Daktari with re-rolls is actually relatively reliable at standing an Intruder back up. Even without rerolls it's a ~2/3rds chance to recover from a relatively low likelihood event. That's solid and it makes 'bad dice' a significantly more recoverable circumstance. Shock really is a large part of the problem: Chance of an Intruder dying vs Core-linked Grunt Sniper = 13.98% Chance of an Intruder going null vs Core-linked Alg MSR (no Daktari) = 16.96% Chance of an Intruder dying vs Core-linked Alg MSR (with 1 order to heal, no rerolls) = 11.64% Chance of an Intruder dying vs Core-linked Alg MSR (with 1 order to heal, 1 reroll) = 9.25% Chance of an Intruder going null vs Core-linked Kamau MSR (no Daktari) = 37.10% Chance of an Intruder dying vs Core-linked Kamau MSR (with 1 order to heal, no rerolls) = 25.81% Chance of an Intruder dying vs Core-linked Kamau MSR (with 1 order to heal, 1 reroll) = 20.73% So, given realistic comparisons: Shock pushes Grunt snipers to be ~33% more lethal to Intruders than an Alguicil MSR. Alternatively, Grunt Snipers are only ~33% less lethal to Intruders than a Kamau MSR whereas an Alguicil is ~55% less lethal to Intruders than a Kamau MSR. Intruders will remain fragile with a Shock nerf and a Dr/Eng buff; those things simply create more space for Intruders and Intruder-like elite Infantry to be competitive. (If you don't like my comparison because an Intruder shouldn't really be fighting a SSL2 model; look at MML2 Q-Drone vs Core-linked Grenzer MSR and MML2 Q-Drone vs Core-linked Kamau MSR and compare the likelihood that the MSR will be killed, assuming a Trauma Doc in position to stand it back up again on the next turn).
my point is not the comparison, which is ok to me. Dak has no problems, was not my point there (yet it only has 5% extra than a traumadoc, which is seen as one of the "best killers in the game", you know, that perception thing and so). Is that, that same problem can be applied to most units in the game, but it is only really relevant on expensive 1W, and also on NWI/dogged ones. But again, shock was created to deal with NWI/dogged, so then it becames a deal only relevant for expensive 1W, which is mainly the problem for the intruder, not exactly shock. T2, viral, DA are also very problematic for him for example. On cheaper troops seems that is not so much of an issue
Currently this counter stack in long range combat is: Fragile but hard to hit Hitting it Reviving it Shock to make sure it dies Shock immunity And that just really screws certain units that fall short on the stack. Shock immunity is such a big deal on the Kamau or the Djanbazan. No shock immunity hurts Sin Eaters and Intruders hard.
To paraphrase: Fact 1: Shock was created to deal with NWI/Dogged so that's an intended effect. Fact 2: Shock has unintended consequences vs expensive models. Conclusion: This issue is the expensive models not Shock Yeah... I don't agree with that conclusion. T2, Viral and DA are also all heavily restricted or rather expensive. So it's reasonable that they're problematic. The issue is that Shock is both plentiful and cheap. Reduce that and Intruders (and other expensive 1W troopers) get more room to be good in. They'll still have significant issues (glass cannons always do), but they get reduced.
yes, we have to dissagre, I don't see any "unintended" consequences vs expensive models. I see that they suffer heavy, and might be more affected because of its cost, but those consequences are far from unintended by CB. It has been like that too much time. Is not like CC, which has been buffed each edition since the beta, so shock's increased avaiability in n3 compared to previous editions seems to me on purpose
The increased amount of shock could be that CB thought the game was getting a bit too safe. I've got bigger issues with how Shock Immunity is distributed where it's getting common that key units that you would want to tactically Shock Dead (e.g. Kamau or Intruders) are increasingly commonly Shock Immune while units where Shock isn't as interesting tactically (Kappa) but getting common. It's also not very often a decision to get or use Shock. You're never presented with an alternative to a Red Fury or Shock Marksman Rifle (unless you're Mowang) and on weapons with Shock the alternative is AP which notoriously does little vs. light targets
So you're saying that Shock was brought in and made increasingly prevalent, in part, to make elite 1W troops worse as an intended outcome?
No. I am saying that Shock was brought to deal with NWI/dogged troopers because they were becoming more prevalent, while knowing that 1W troops would also be affected (because they were from the beggining). Actually, it had a change to even affect 2W NWI troopers, but after all the rants from that, CB took back that interaction. So I think they wanted to make the game more deadly for most units, but not to make "elite 1W troops worse". but of course, we have different thinking regarding how CB works around the complaints, so then we will dissagree in the reasons and outcome of this kind of rules.
So, I'm just catching up on this and wanted to comment on the LI/MI/HI discussion from about 10 pages ago, but it happens to also be relevant to this Shock/NWI conversation as well. I've always thought the classifications of light infantry, medium infantry, heavy infantry, etc should denote how survivable something was. CB in the past has kind of made that about ARM and Wounds, but lately we have 2W LI, 1W+NWI HI, and the whole concept of what MI is has just gone out the window. I would propose; LI = 1W MI = 1W+NWI HI = 2W S-HI = 2W+NWI TAG = 3W I want to make it clear that I'm not suggesting we change units with existing classifications to their place in the above, I'm suggesting we change their classification to match what they are above. So a Dasyu would become MI, an Intruder would become LI, Sheskiin would become HI, Joan would become Super HI. With the new splitting out of rules that we're seeing in N4, the hackable characteristic doesn't need to be tied to HI and so can be given out all we like, so we could have hackable MI like the Zencha and non-hackable HI like Sheskiin. Sheskiin wouldn't need to gain the hackable characteristic for being HI, the HI classification would just be there so we know how many wounds she has without having to explain any exceptions. This proposed change could also allow shock ammo to lose the straight to dead quality and instead have it ignore the NWI component, meaning it would be an incredibly useful for removing 33%-50% of a units wounds, but not so powerful that it's always the right ammo type, as it seems to be now against anything not immune to it. This lets us quickly and easily communicate to our opponent what the classification of each unit was so that they understand the number of wounds or NWI skills that they're dealing with, and it creates a consistent reason for there to even be the LI/MI/HI classifications in the first place. It gives shock a very important role in the game without having it destroy beyond repair the 30-40pt LI unit you've brought with a single shot. Some other ideas on the fringes while building off this is classifying units with V:dogged as WB, and the Main Battle TAGs as 3W+NWI, that might be a bit too much if they're keeping tactical awareness, but I like the idea of stronger differentiation between the S7 main battle tags and the S6 mini tags.
I like it. Nice and simple. No interpretation needed. I'd also at for the ARM just for the sake of it. LI ARM 0-2 MI ARM 2-3 HI ARM 3-5 SHI ARM 4-6 TAG ARM 5-10
Yeah I would support Intruders not having shock immune because they would be a troop that you would want to bring that counter for. But that's not what's happening, you just have shock on accident. Plus things like the Kamau getting it so perfectly just makes it feel worse off.
That's pretty much my problem with it, you aren't going "I think I will need this tool so I will take piece a and b" thanks to every other profile having it you just have large amounts of it incidentally.
Sidetrack suggestion: Regeneration should be a (ZOC) ARO. then it would actually get used a reasonable amount, and be way cooler to boot.
There's a lot of ways I think it could be better but we all want the cinematics of troops getting blown to shreds then coming back again and again.
Yeah exactly. those kind of cinematic moments are what a lot of people play for. And the idea that if you go near them they might come back would make them feel as creepy as the skill sounds. Cool AF. I've been told Djans are even described that way in the fluff, though I don't read a lot of it myself.
