I belive in more simple more better. Doctor and Doctor +3 using doctors WIP. Then Automedkit and Auotmedkit +3 using owners PH. Done. No more. Keep it simple.
To change the topic ... I propose that Fireteam Boni in their current form have to change in N4 because of the excessive application of MSV2 Troopers in Fireteams. These units are breaking the game, because essentially it is not not possible to get some kind of mods against them. Only exception is Cover, but even this can be be avoided with REMs in Fireteams using MML2. So, while the whole game is about mod stacking (cover, camo, surprise shot aso.) this is not possible against these troopers in Fireteams, so effectively they are breaking the game. Not bending, breaking.
Why break fireteams for all troopers when the issue you have is with MSV2? Not to mention, there's really only one (or now two I guess) linkable units warping the game. No one complains about the Brawler Sniper. Not to mention, your argument about REMs is 1) non sequitur and 2) moot because no linkable REMs have MSV2 except the Rui Shi, which doesn't shoot over 24 inches.
They're not breaking the game, mate. I don't want to say something glib like 'git gud' but, honestly, linked MSV2 troops are beaten a few ways: ARO-baiting with Albedo: Coordinated order an Albedo model with a non-Albedo model (or have an Albedo model in a Fireteam, see: Black Friar or Lei Gong). The MSV model must ARO against the non-Albedo model and then take a free shot from the Albedo model (unless it dodges, but that just delays the inevitable). Coordinated order: Four models stand up and shoot the MSV2 trooper. It either dodges or takes 3 unopposed shots (albeit, a Kamau in cover at long range can be a bitch to hit but infiltrators can make it happen. Total Reaction Remote in Active: Tune it up with Assisted Fire and then start a fight. You're on 4 dice to the MSV's 2 dice. Even if it wins it's unlikely to outright kill your remote with DA ammo (both rounds go through, fail all 4 armour saves through Cover is pretty unlikely). Now your engineer repairs the Remote and you start again. The sniper's smart move is to used Stun rounds to stop this but if it does, your Remote isn't even dead... Just throw more dice at them. A decent BS HMG at 4 dice (5 if linked) has a good enough chance at winning that it's a toss-up. Libertos or other cheap camo piece (preferably with a mine) can sneak up and provide a forked ARO for the sniper. Dodge the mine/attacks or F2F the Libertos (and tank the mine). Speculative Fire. It's not efficient but it's risk-free. Especially good if you can tag multiple Fireteam members in the blast. Even if the sniper survives, each other casualty makes dealing with it even easier. Play around it. If you can't beat the sniper (for some reason), ignore it and play a different section of the table. If the sniper is covering the entire table, you have the entire toolbox of your army to deal with it (see above). I played Varuna for a year in my meta and it didn't take long for the players to adapt to a Kamau sniper in overwatch. I reckon, by the end, it wasn't alive after the first 3 orders of my opponent's first turn in about 75% of games if it was deployed to cover the entire table.
@Spitfire_TheCat this is how Corregidor does it. Intruder, Gecko, Lupe, Jaguar, and even AD ADHL and E/Mitter can all participate with OHKO weapons. Unfortunately Bandits are irregular and cannot. If linked MSV is a regular opponent I suggest investing in this and giving it a try.
CJC also does well with brute-forcing it with Feurbach Tsyklons (really just a more effective version of the Reaktion+Clockmaker strat), Spec Fire builds (either McMurder based or Targetted+Vertigo) or by playing around it (Massacre helps here). So there's enough decent options that it's got relatively easy access to linked MSV counters in many popular builds. OTOH, it's MI focused builds get cruelled by the match-up. That's not true of all factions: some have a few superlative options (ie. Bakunin with the TM + Custodier combo) but have whole swathes of otherwise viable lists rendered significantly less / entirely noncompetitive (having to find room for a supremely vulnerable 34pt model in a lot of lists is a problem). So while I absolutely don't think they're breaking the game, they are certainly a dominant factor of the late N3 meta. Whether you consider that to be a good thing or not is more YMMV. My issue with really dominant factors such as strong core linked MSV AROs isn't that they exist, but what they do in a tournament environment (or any other environment where you don't know your opponent's faction or the table prior to writing your list). It's increasingly difficult to build two lists that will: 1) do the missions, 2) deal with all the potential faction skew available, 3) deal with table variation, and 4) be interesting to play. And yes, I'm aware that 'all lists are essentially compromises' but it does mean that 'it's not the list' is increasingly less true than it once was. If you look at Musterkrux's lists of 'anti-Kamau strats' the vast majority of them (and in particular the actually efficient ones) require notable compromises during list building. I think a reasonable response is for TOs to deliberately build tournaments that use mission-sets that present less of a list-building problem to players. This allows players to tailor lists more to deal with the other considerations and less 'one list to do the weird mission, and the other list a compromise I hope will do ok against whatever I meet'. I'd like to see this sort of tournament design be enabled in N4: designing sets of at least 3 missions that are variations on a theme is one option for doing this.
That's the point really. I have not before encountered in infinity something added to the game which made everyone rethink their lists this much. Whenever i built a list now i think 'How do i deal with a Kamau Sniper?' while building. Usually i can find something that works but never before had i to look for the solution of something so specific this early. Good example for the big faction-skew: JSA is one of the worst offenders. Going through that list of solutions from @Musterkrux at a glance the only thing JSA has actually available is the total-reaction drone (50% win for Kamau/ 30% drone) or just dicing the sniper with an Oyoroi (30% win for Kamau/ 30% Oyoroi). Both of them are pretty limiting in list-building. Even the drone costs 1.5 SWC for JSA.
This is more like I meant it. I didn't argue from a Nomads perspective alone or from Corregidor alone. More like overall. And it is not only the sniper, if it's a Rui Shi or a Deva with Spitfire, that's enough. You don't have to deploy them that far away and 24 Inches is enough most of the time. Especially if the MSV-Team has first turn and can adapt it's position. Several of the arguments are not doable for all factions. Albedo ... when we are talking Nomads, do we have Albedo? And even if you have Albedo, it is just your first turn. Afterwards ... you're dead. Libertos ... in sectorials? Only if you are playing Dashat and Dashat is more part of the problem than part of the solution. And sneaking up can be hard depending on table. Tossing more dice ... well, might be my luck or better my absence of luck that this isn't working for me. Coordinated Orders ... would work, right Speculative Fire ... do you really field a LGL or something similiar in every list? Playing around ... hard, if the ARO piece is shutting down two fire lanes you have to approach. And if you are in the wrong range band, since you have to approach, only a handful of weapons can even get 50/50-odds. So it's only Coordinated Order. The question is: Is stuff like this needed for the game? It is much more game defining than a Jammer or Hacking and everyone is whining about Hacking and Jamming, but noone about Fireteams (well, now I am). Do we really need fully linkable MSV2 trooper? Which are (semi) wildcards? I don't want to argue about it. I just want to say my oppinion ... and everyone can do with it as he pleases. Ignore it or nod at it.
You're painting those as far more difficult than they actually are for Nomads. Albedo clearly includes White Noise (although it is worth noting that it is only available on expensive and vulnerable Hackers and is less efficient than Albedo). Disposable Camo like Libertos. Zeroes, Bandits and Hecklers can all do the same job. Yes it's not as efficient, but Libertos are universally considered extremely optimised for their role. The Tomcat Minelayer also does well with a bit of support. Spec Fire. Yes: I include it as often as possible, but admittedly less than I'd like. It's often the most efficient solution to difficult problems, including jammers. Although TJC gets hit hard by this (0 Spec Fire options that aren't Smoke). It's also a factor that makes Nomad Line/Garrison Infantry links often better than MI links. Play Around it. CamO with a >8" range weapon is a good answer for this, which aren't exactly rare in Nomads nads. But Nomads in particular as Eclipse and White Noise also offer good answers. So while I agree none of these things are trivial, for most Nomads they're not particularly hard either for certain list archetypes ie. largely the ones people think are good. But @CabalTrainee is basically right about JSA. This has increasingly become the determinant of "good" sectorials: they can build a list that can do OK against a Kamau level ARO, 20+ order CHA (or similar), Fidays/Speculos, McMurder rampages, Avatars with 12 orders and still have enough flexibility to tailor for the mission. Or you can just apply a relatively universal solution to these problems of "go first and Alpha hard" and roll the dice on being able to defang your opponent's list before he does you.
In my experience, JSA's solution to the Kamau in general is buffing a Rui Shi and finding a way to close the gap or making the sacrifice play with a coordinated order. I personally don't like calling out a Coordinated Order as a solution here -- its odds of success are pretty low and it also guarantees you lose a piece. I don't like that the Kamau, just by existing, is almost definitely going to cost me at least what it costs, and have its pick of a target from my list. That's my design issue with it. You have the most White Noise of almost any faction. The only factions with potentially more access to it are CA and Aleph. Not every list, but every list should have at least 1-2 tools to deal with a hypothetical Kamau unless you are sure you aren't playing against one. If you really have no other way to maneuver around it, you should double-check how your tables compare to others around the world. Again, look at the odds of any normal linked MSV2 unit vs. the Kamau. Even a BS11 line trooper with an HMG should be favored to win against any linked MSV2 that isn't the Kamau (the Haidao might also be more even, but should still favor the line trooper). The problem isn't linkable MSV2 -- the problem is that the Kamau gets link bonuses for a very cheap price and has a disproportionately high level of utility for its cost. I don't think I've seen anyone here whine about hacking btw, not sure what you're on about there.
The coordinated order can be nice. I use that all the time with haqq. But there i have the throw-away units available to make it worthwhile.
You haven't read some of the pages in the Anti-Jammer-Thread, have you? There it sounded like Oblivion is the scariest thing on the table.
Interventors and Custodiers really aren't expensive for what they bring... there's so many MSV units you can manipulate with them that one HD+ should be mandatory if you have access to them. Far from everyone has concerns over it because Oblivion is oppressive to a specific list theme that most factions can't even make (well... they can but those lists tend to suck so much no one does), but that one sectorial is forced to make.
I'll give you Interventors should be taken in most lists they're available for but Custodiers are anti-synergistic and are a 34pt tax in the extremely common situation you don't need them because the only Hackable thing in your opponent's list is their KHD, and you can't use them to support your REMs anyway because you need to Cybermask to avoid dying on your opponent's 2nd or 3rd order of the game. But that's kind of the problem: these units becoming "must takes" distorts what constitutes a viable list. In Bakunin it's 55pts in every list just on the off chance you face MSV2. Also Oblivion is NOT oppressive to any faction that has Tinbot B KHDs. Mostly it's a vulnerability.
Whilst I don't have quite the issue with msv2 links that some seem to, the increase in mixed links has definitely upped the viability of defensive linkteams. Dismantling an aggressive linkteam is much easier to do than a defensive bunker that might not move post deployment. Where that used to mean outgunning a fusilier missile launcher it now might mean dealing with an orc/koj backed up by the same 4 fusiliers. Providing your opponent the problem of a fully linked hi aro piece might once have been completely list defining in cost, too expensive to merely be an order bunker you had to move it forwards and expose it to close range threats. In late n3 this is no longer true, the cost of standing an fully linked orc on a building has gone down 100 points. Clearly this setup isn't unbeatable, but not all factions have seen an increase in their options to answer this sort of thing. On a side note I'm not even sure jsa are that badly effected, they are so bad at shooting that it's largely irrelevant how scary the big gun in the opposing linkteam is. That said I would rate them as one of the worst sectorials in the game and the recent stats illustrate that I have no idea what is good and what isnt.
I don't think you and I are playing the same game... none of what you assert matches my experience with either IA or O-12. None of it. What is this warped expectation that something needs to be almost 100% effective for it to be broken? This is Infinity, you need to prevent your opponent from spending their 30-odd orders throughout a game to score better than you and it should be enough that something is a too good at wasting orders for its investment. If you use repeaters to stack your AROs and spread them over the fireteam you increase your chances of breaking it apart due to how Fireteams work. Bonus points if you provide cheap AROs so that they can't just walk a KHD up to the Repeater 4" ahead of the team. And I've never seen Cybermask be a worthwhile order investment for a HD+ in practice. Sure, in theory, but in practice orders are seldom bountiful enough that spending it on a non-critical Hacker (that anecdotally has been at least an equal to my KHD for anti-hacker ARO) is seldom available and certainly not on par with how common MSV1 is getting.
I never argued that Oblivion should be 100% effective. I'm saying I can't think of a faction that should find it particularly oppressive if they take reasonable precautions given the myriad of options for dealing with it (which are more widespread than those for MSV or Jammers); and specifically that KHD + Tinbot Bs provides a superlative counter to the threat of Hacking. I don't see how a lone Custodier consistently gives IA or MO HI-cores issues: I've certainly never managed it since the Tinbot B profiles dropped. You're going to get more issues out of a Dep Rep Zero: EMaulers FTW! So at this point we're running 2 Zeroes and a Custodier: so that's 74pts pretty much tailored for anti-HI work that is of *far* less utility vs say USARF and will just get rolled by CHA and most Tohaa/Spiral lists. And the amount of Repeaters / KHDs O-12 can put down should give a Custodier hassles. They're really quite squishy when you're attacking them with a KHD. They also have really good Non-hackable options to get around the threat.
This is a very important post. The big question is, do we all still want to play this way for the next 5 years? INFINITY is a 28mm tower defense wargame where futuristic armies are deleted by the highlanders from Braveheart unless they have a specific combination of 5 guys standing next to each other
I'm not saying Oblivion is 100% effective, either, I'm saying that maybe an investment of 74 points shouldn't be even 30% effective at being a order sink to a 200 points investment (including Tinbots) when those 200 points do not grant any particular benefits against someone who doesn't invest that much (by necessity because there are factions who are incapable of investing such 74 points or where investing those 74 points is very detrimental to list design) It sort of ties into Kamau design where the Varuna player will invest around 74 points and 1.5 SWC and will force from you some very specific counter-investments, which is similar to how an IA player will have to make some similar investments on the chance that their opponent has a list with slightly above average methods of dealing with heavy infantry, so they need to give up on having MSV2 in their main fireteam, they will probably be unable to make use of their drop troops, they will have a hard time to do anything other than move their skirmishers, and they need to ferry their main fireteam forward to enable any other part of their list to function and bank everything that the opponent isn't able to overwhelm their one KHD because they are not able to bring decent indirect means of dealing with threats such as HD+, LGL, Jammer, or Pitchers/DepReps. Which is probably why I've been seeing much better success with IA lists that avoid using heavy infantry as much as possible (which also ironically unlocks a means speculative fire). Now there's your problem. You're twisting the Custodier assessment around faultily. HD+ gives most lists problems, regardless if they have a strong HI theme or not, because they have the perfect set of Hacking Programs. There's some very specific lists that it doesn't interacts with and even then any faction that has a HD+ also has decent REMs that they can buff. CHA doesn't have Veteran and Veteran Kazaks are immune to ISO, not immune to IMM-2, so those E/Maulers should still be effective as long as you don't face Morats. Regardless of that, those 74 points are still able to contribute effectively to any list as back up gun fighters, provided the rest of your list isn't Morlocks and they're there for long-range When I write "O-12" that's from the perspective of someone playing O-12 and using Cyberghosts HD+ almost religiously. Bakunin are an endangered species around here so I never face Custodiers and for some reason our Aleph players don't seem to want to play the hacking game much. I can't actually tell whether O-12 gives Custodiers hassle or not Btw, there you have it; "Non-hackable options to get around the threat" - the big problem with Infinity hacking. Best way to play hacking is to not play it because exposing yourself to it doesn't give any noticeable benefits and making great use of it doesn't present big benefits. When I want Oblivion nerfed, I want to buff basically everything about hacking that doesn't target HI/TAGs or that doesn't buff REMs. (Edit: the only problem is that it's almost impossible to actually get a discussion going about it because everyone is so damned protective of "the only hacking program that does anything")
Raoul, murderer of Kamau and it's buddies would like a word. That being said most TJC lists natively have answer for linked MSV with trying with it usually being a combination of white noise and a B4/5 gun and coordinated orders. Or a linked MSR grenzer has a chance to brute force it.
