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Linked Jammers: Super-broken, now in White Banner

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Savnock, Mar 26, 2020.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @meikyoushisui you missed the comparison that people are complaining the most about; B2 WIP17 in ARO vs no action.

    Although, that is a problem that only occurs if you house rule Sixth Sense to function so you could also house rule Reset (and Shield programs) to function using the exact same exception.

    It's about proportionality, terrain and mission.

    There are missions where a Jammer or odor based Tohaa magic is just another obstacle, even if terrain can make it particularly nasty, then there are missions where they can be problematic if they're allowed to get into position, and then there are missions where the mission is designed in such a way that Jammers get super-easy to get into position to work to maximum effect.

    Merely an obstacle missions such as; Annihilation (it's a kill mission), Biotechvore (they have to move out and become vulnerable), Firefight (requires Jammer-saturated DZ to be problematic), Front Line (sectors are large), Power Pack (many objectives and difficult deployment), Quadrant Control (large sectors), Supremacy (Quadrant Control),

    Highly terrain dependent missions such as; Acquisition (3 objectives central line), Safe Area (makes it easier to defend), Supplies (3 central objectives), Transmission Matrix (makes it easier to defend, also nearly invalidates Hackable units (terms and conditions apply)),

    Jammer heaven missions such as; Capture and Protect (one defensive objective touching the DZ), Decapitation (usually very easy to put high value units safe), Looting and Sabotaging (makes it extremely costly to attack AC2), Armory (8" large central objective with guaranteed lots of total cover), Unmasking (HVTs can often easily be deployed fully within ZOC of hidden Jammer(s)),

    And the weird ones; Counter Measure and Highly Classified where you can't foresee what you need to protect.

    It's the heaven category. It shouldn't exist for anything and I can't think of any device in game where it would exist outside of ISO effects. Things should be strong if you use them right and if the counters are fairly common, but decent grenade launchers aren't all that common and veteran is one of the game's rarest skills so you get these situations where the only option is to brute-force the problem because there were no reasonable way for you to work around it.
    As is, the NO LOF label on the ISO effects and no significant drawbacks is the problem... come back when the number of factions without several elite units with access to launchers and more than one veteran trooper can be counted on a two-finger salute. But sure, if you're playing Biotechvore - I can't see any reason why Jammers would be very problematic from a games mechanics perspective, but Infinity is a bit more diverse than just playing kill missions...
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I think the toughest game I played into an equivalent obstacle was Engineering Deck against Spiral corps. The central room had a Tricore Draal and multiple dazers inside, and I needed to contest it to win. Couldn't reset, couldn't move-move forward, couldn't use stealth, and my army had no models with structure near enough to make the run. Had to just straight brute force it for the win - throw smoke to allow a path, then literally coordinate models forward so the kriigel couldn't eraser all of them before one of them reached the central room to contest.

    It was a good game. Very hard fought. :)
     
  3. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    The only reason I can think of for this nonsense are :
    - sell the last sectorial (I have doubts about this ... They obviously didnt do it for SWF)
    - the jammer will work differently in N4.

    I hope it's the second option.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I hope so, too, but omitting something during transitory N3 rules wouldn't be unheard of.
    It could be a combination of N4 being different AND them wanting to release the Jammer miniature before N4 in which case they need to profile to exist, of course, but...
     
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  5. smog

    smog Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I love to read stuff like that if you can be bothered to write it
     
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  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Spiral Corps is absolutely disgusting at any mission that involves scoring for holding areas. Engineering Deck and Armory especially, but they're still strong at the quadrant control missions as well.
     
  7. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    FTFY.

    SCNR :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::joy:
     
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  8. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    This analysis is incorrect. @meikyoushisui 's analysis is even more incorrect. With the link bonuses the Jammer is WIP17, and more importantly the attack is -unopposed- because you cannot declare Reset due to their delay with Sixth Sense L2.

    And they are WIP 17, not WIP 14, thanks to the link bonuses.

    Why did you post an incorrect analysis? The correct numbers and rules to use in the situation we are discussing were clear.

    (Thank you @Mahtamori for both pointing this out and explaining why the context of a mission where you can to control something makes this a serious problem.)

    Each die has an 85% chance to hit, and they get two chances. You have to succeed on two BTS saves most likely. You're probably going to be Isolated. I'm guessing 70% chance or higher?

    I'm on a mobile right now with no time to monkey with the dice app, but I'm pretty sure @toadchild could make the actual stats appear. I can do it later if needed.

    [And no, it is definitely not a certainty that the Reset declaration issue will be addressed in N4. I'm raising the issue here because it really, really should be nerfed through either Reset being allowed without an Attack or by nerfing Jammers directly. Please stop trying to minimize the issue, this needs to be addressed.]
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Quoting myself because that's what the cool people do?

    Just to point out that omissions wouldn't be unheard of; Jujak has a Tinbot profile that's off by 4 points of missing equipment.

    Quoting this because it's relevant, not to point out any errors.
    Just a small note that is important to keep in mind; Jammers can Intuitively attack camouflage tokens, but Intuitive Attack is unmodified WIP. So regardless of Fireteam level, such a declaration would be WIP 14 B 1.

    Edit.
    The numbers you're looking at for Jammer versus no (relevant) action;
    BTS 0: 81.5%
    BTS 3: 61.8%
    BTS 6: 55.1%
    VTS 9: 37.9%
     
    #289 Mahtamori, Apr 6, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  10. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Oooh good catch, thank you for pointing it out.

    Also, here's hoping they separate the Intuitive Attack capability away from the normal attack and/or ARO capability of Jammers in N4.

    Thanks, appreciate you doing that. Yeah 81.5% seems a lot more like the accurate number for BTS 0, not the 51% that was being put up as a strawman. Even 61% chance of getting Isolated is a crap deal, considering that's before you can even close, if they're in cover.

    Playing some TTS this week, going to have to try this out against someone who is forewarned (to avoid being a dick) but with their generic ITS lists to test how well basic tools can stop this. The forewarning probably won't be too much of a distortion of that, because as soon as anyone knows their foe is White Banner they'll probably expect a 50/50 chance of this, just like generic Haqq means 2-4 Muttawiah most of the time.
     
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  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    That said, the presence of holo1 means that you will likely be playing at least a full turn expecting it 100% of the time.
     
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  12. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    So you were already able to narrow the ammount of the really "problematic" missions down to six since you'd put Hunting Party into that category. That's an overseeable ammount of missions where one will build special lists anyways (e.g. who doesn't bring an LGL to Unmasking?).
    But where I fail to follow you is why you think that a veteran L1 trooper equipped with the LGL would be needed to take care of a linked Jammer trooper? The LGL's +3 range is 8" to 16" which will keep any trooper comfortably far away from the Jammer's AOE and as I mentioned before facilitating the Targeted state will let your LGL trooper shoot on an additional +3 MOD even when declaring speculative fire (if you happen to play a sectorial army you can get a total +9 MOD vs. max. plain PH 10). But I didn't mention the gerneral immunity of troops with G: Synchronized/Servant or Antipode against isolation (as per FAQ 1.9) yet. Now think about those pesky Aux- / Sirius- / Kiran- / WhateverBots with ther big templates or Antipodes happily prancing through the Tian Gou's ZOC without being affected by him. You could even walk your random Flash Pulse Bot right into the Jammer just to follow with your Engineer's G: Servant Bot getting the other one back on line, performing Spotlight and let Grenades, or even Smart Missiles, rain on the Tian Gou (and possibly on his Fireteam as well). Yes it'll cost a bunch of orders but it'll get you rid of the Tian Gou blocking a POI and whatever will be hit with him would've to be dealt with anyways.
    Still this all will be highly depend on the actual table layout and else but one has options apart from Veteran L1.

    I'm very aware of the shitty interaction with Reset and I'm on the same page with you that this has to change (in general the requirement to be targeted by the opponent to be able to declare a certain defensive skill or defensive hacking program is one of the dumbest I've seen).
    But on the other hand no one forces a player to run a certain non-impetuous troop right into the Jammer's area of effect without any previously taken measurements to incapacitate the Jammer (as far as I'm informed the jammer didn't turn into a black hole with the new sectorial army). Further the reactive Jammer bearing troop has just a close to zero chance to chase after any active troopers. Therefore IMO the Jammer's overpowering synergies can be migitated during the own active turn.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    You only need to Intuitive Attack vs Camo / TO Camo - the Jammer is a No LoF ZoC weapon. In a normal situation it will be B2 WIP17.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Jammer
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Edit: Sorry if the below seem a bit harsh, but it's frustrating when important nuances of ones post gets taken out (as I'm no doubt going to do accidentally to your post)

    That "and" is linking two different problems with their general availability, it is not linking two different abilities as necessary to be combined. So light grenade launchets are not common on decent platforms. Veteran is very rare outside of Morats.

    There are solutions to it. Don't try to bend this as if I'm saying there are not.

    The solutions are not proportional and I didn't narrow it down to only 6 problematic missions, they are problematic in all missions, but only 6 of them are so off the charts that a immediate hotfix is required according to me.

    Who doesn't bring LGLs to Hunting Party? How much time have you spent in Army going through other factions? Is the rhetorical question. There are numerous considerations, not least of which is that they might only be available costing 1 SWC on a BS 11 platform that dies to a stiff wind.
     
    #294 Mahtamori, Apr 6, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's what I wrote?
     
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  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Ah, sorry, got hung up on the 2nd part of the sentence when I saw that quoted.
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Once it's revealed, sure.

     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It can absolutely be mitigated. That's never been the issue. The issue has always been how much Jammers tends to dominate gameplay in any game they're in.

    They're the epitome of the asymmetric tool: defensively they cost you essentially nothing to use and impose disproportionate costs on your opponent. Offensively, they counter the strongest defensive states (Camouflaged / TO Marker and Suppression) relatively trivially.

    This is true of Eraser as well, coming as it does on units that are already good if expensive.

    It is not true of Oblivion which is more expensive, a severely restricted by target set and exposed to explicit extremely strong counters.

    So while they are neither game breaking or an auto win they do dominate the meta. Their prevalence significantly contributes to:

    Hacking being weak (they replicate a large part of the Hacking role while being cheaper and having a wider target set and also while providing a counter to hostile Hacking),

    Marker state dominance (Marker states provide one of the best ways to mitigate Jammers in your active)

    Elite unit weakness (Jammers inflict both an order cost and threaten a 1 shot disable to an opponent running elite troops)

    I'd like to see their continued anti-Alpha utility preserved (a legitimate and necessary role) but their offensive and anti-Hacking effects reduced (which is what I see as their most problematic issues).

    Something like:

    Increase their DAM to 16
    Have them impose "ISO-1 1 Turn"
    Make them Comms Equipment
    Remove Intuitive Attack

    This would make them better at stopping Alphas but FAR less of a threat offensively than they are now as they'd lose the ability to effectively disable elite units for long periods of time.

    Edit: oh, and ofcourse fix Reset.
     
  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Making them cost .5 SWC universally wouldn't go astray either.
     
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    First of all, I've played against Linked Jammers in a competitive environment (vs. PanO in a Spec Ops tournament), and it can create circumstances where you can't really approach a fireteam, depending on the terrain setups. It makes for an amazing way to protect a Kamau sniper from having his fireteam be taken out.

    In general, the ability to cover an objective with a Jammer from a rooftop or somewhere similarly inaccessible is enough of a problem that I don't think there's really any way to salvage the Jammer. There needs to be some way to attack a Jammer back with no LoF - even making the Jammer comms equipment (so you could use Blackout to deal with it) would barely be enough. Making it so you can reset out of Isolation doesn't really help, since you can't spend the order to reset out of it particularly easily in that context.

    It is by far the most prevalent non-interactive element in the game, and it seems to be designed to exist that way. I just don't see much being gained from them existing in the game. Just deleting them and replacing them with E/Maulers would be the best bet.
     
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