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Why would you?: kunai vs ninja

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by dhellfox, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. dhellfox

    dhellfox The keeper of the Forgotten

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    hello its that time again to start up another one this time its Kunai vs regular ninjas.

    haven't checked every faction and their secs however outside of yujing or panO (and surprisingly not JSA) Kunais can only be recruited if soldiers of fortune rules are active. no idea why they're classified as mechanized....

    anyway back to the match up within vanilla yu jing
    upload_2020-3-31_22-52-41.png
    upload_2020-3-31_22-53-58.png

    so ladies and gentlemen why would you pick Kunais over ninjas? (or vise versa)
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because Ninjas don't have Multi Snipers or Shock Marksman Rifles (in N4)
    Because Pan-O don't have Ninjas.
    Because JSA don't have Kunai.
    Because you ran out of AVA.
     
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  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Apparently the Ninja sniper profile will be retired. Also the JSA probably don't love Ninjas that work for Yu Jing.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I also think Kunai looked at the Uprising and went "no thank you Samu-beggars, we're being payed well by Yu Jing you poor sods. Ryuken? More like Pooryuken, amirite?"
     
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  5. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    The Kunai MSR is a whopping 5 points cheaper than the Ninja MSR. And C+ is a better skill for a long ranged DZ troop than Infiltration.
    The Kunai himself is 5 points more expensive than let's say a Hexa and as a result isn't very optimized for doing the TO ARO thing, but he gives the option to stack him with another ARO piece in case someone didn't have access to TO.
    Outside of SOF, the MMR is more interesting but falls short by wasting the CC capability on a Shock CCW.

    Most of the Ninja Profiles are too expensive already, the KHD is mostly an option because he unlocks REMS, 0SWC KHD and DA CCW for Missions and actual CC. Still ends up dead weight a lot of the time, 29 points for something without effective combat potential outside of 8" is pretty tough to utilize as anything else than an opportunist.

    N4 will have to fix both relative to Oniwabans and other Skirmishers to make them feel worth the pricetag.
     
    #5 Teslarod, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
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  6. Miraclebutt

    Miraclebutt Well-Known Member

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    My own Ninja does this thing where she comes out of hidden deployment, flubs her Engage, then gets set on fire and dies, so it would be pretty nice to have one that flubs their sniper shot instead.

    Yu Jing's camo game is far more effective and less expensive than PanO, so I feel like the Kunai's more for PanO's benefit than YJ. The SMMR profile's cute, and C+ is always useful on a TO model, so I can see someone getting use out of it.

    It feels very solidly useful without being necessary, which I think is a good place for a cross-faction model like this.
     
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  7. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I don´t like Kunai and I hope they will not replace our Ninjas entirely. The old Ninja-Sniper looks even more better than the Kunai - who not look like a Ninja anyway, more like a typical brawler in a bad movie. I can see use in the SMMR Profile because this one has at least FD and a higer rate of fire. The sniper may force a -12 to an opponent in active turn, but you are usualy on 11 (range +/- cover) witch is far from awesome. For a clan, that specialise on range killings it has a very low BS and now skills that helps shooting better (MMS2 for example). I could have helped to gibe them BS12 and tune down the cc-skills.

    Compared to a regular Ninja Kunais have one point less CC, no infiltration but Climb +, wich makes them 5 pts cheaper. This make up for a shaolin, but you lack infiltration. For a sniper this may be okay, but in general I think this is a must for a Ninja.

    Ninjas need a rework in point, thats for sure. I can see the sniper profile going away in N4 because it is very rarely taken. Next unwanted is the AHD. 40 Pts for a suprise hack, that will not work and end in a grilled Ninja brain in a worstcase szenario - no thanks. There is a reason, that YJ players take KHD mostly.

    PS: Mechanized Troop looks like an error, Mercenary Troops is more fitting
     
    #7 archon, Mar 31, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    [​IMG]

    1) Lulz, who dafuq unlocks REM's with the Ninja, when you got a Rui Shi to buff (and now also potentially the Long Ya)

    2) It exists primarily to push buttons on turn 2 or 3, the Clipsos pays 25 points to do this exact thing and has little to no other purpose, other than the AP mines. I don't understand the viewpoint that it just "stands around" and waiting for things to happen. That seems to me more of a self fulfilling prophecy, it just ends up as dead weight most of the time, because it seems you had no plans for it to begin with.
     
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  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I understand where he's coming from. At least Clipsos has the combi rifle and can go into suppression and hold the position or surprise shot beyond 8". The Ninja KHD will be able to do the button pushing but after that it can't like hold that position as well. I've hit that button and then went on to do other things to later loose that thing to the enemy because nothing there to fight back.
     
  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Oh, sure and it sucks that the KHD Ninja can't do the same but 29 for a TO infiltrating specialist that holds game winning potential, due to how strong HD is, as well as quite a few missions favor going last, the term "dead weight" is simply alien to me, when it comes to the Ninja. Sure, it may have failed me in a game because of shit dice, but that's a whole different thing. xD
     
  11. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    That's user error. Don't use Engage unless the situation is utterly dire. You're far better off letting the enemy go past then revealing on your turn and kicking their head in.


    Sometimes my lists want 24pts of Chaiyi/pangos but I'm not bringing a combat REM. Ninja is useful to unlock in those situations.
     
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  12. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    @Triumph Fair enough I suppose. I do also rather get tired of constantly using the Rui Shi, so I could see myself building a list without its inclusion.
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    You're incorrectly assuming I've ever taken a Ninja in YJ or ISS. The only place where I ever ran one is JSA. :P
    JSA has the much better FO, who can actually clear something off an objective without using CC and is completely hacking immune - which makes him a lot better for turn 3 Objective grabs. The extra Range is also something that he has over an Oniwaban or the much more expensive Shinobu.

    Never got the moronic talk to bring a regular Hacker just to buff a Rui Shi (which also requires even more Orders every turn). But I still need to unlock REMs either way. Unless I'm running an Aragoto KHD, Keisotsu HD it is.

    Don't even know why YJ Players wanted to keep the Ninja outside of the DA CCW Combi for ITS *shrug*
     
  14. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused. Buffing a Rui Shi with marksmanship is moronic?
     
  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Always doing it religiously without anything else properly benefitting from it, rather than picking some utility Hacking to unlock REMs and call it a day over buying a Rui Shi, Hacker to buff it and an Engineer fo just that one Rui Shi.
    The thing is good no question, but dies to a stiff beeze and is still pretty good unbuffed with some Smoke or just good Rangebands.
     
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Sure I can agree with that.
     
  17. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I'm a bit fucken annoyed that there is no Kunai in Imperial Service. SMG ninja MAY appease my irritation.
     
  18. Maksimas

    Maksimas Heavy Infantry Addict Maxim

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    I can see two reasons for taking a KUnai over our currently existing Ninjas:

    Cheaper TO camo Sniper Rifle. Hey, Hidden Deployment long-range low-burst guns are as effective an undertook of an ARO as ever, so that's neat.
    The Marksman Rifle profile is far better at a gunfight than anything the NInja offers.

    Why I'd take a regular Ninja over this?

    Tacbow KHD is a tried and true profile that, while much-maligned, does still work decently well. KHD is a useful thing in a faction with hackables as numerous as Yu Jing, plus it's an infiltrating TO specialist. Tacbow + Stealth combo is still a trick that, while rarely useful, is just good enough to be worth remembering. And the regular Ninja melees better, sometimes even having an arguably better melee weapon.

    TL;DR Ninja for sneaky beaky tacticool shenanigans. Kunai for hitmen duty.
     
  19. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    LMAO, now that's a whole different talk. Get out our subforum, you traitor scum! :joy:
     
  20. SpectralOwl

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    One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the powerful synergy between Climbing Plus and Marker state. You can move upfield through all kinds of threats and clear rooftops easily with the Marksman Rifle version, since any Skirmishers far enough forward to see you won't want to chance a Discover and waste their own Marker. It's also going to be a nightmare to take down in active turn on a roof, since without a Sensor sweep first a Marker on a roof will always have at least one completely free attack on something coming after it (Climb, Jump, ClimbingPlus+Discover, SuperJump+Discover all leave a chance to Engage or Shoot unopposed). Only Dart, Uma, and other Kunai under marker, or the order-intensive combination of Sensor and Speculative Fire can take down a Kunai on a roof safely.
     
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