In a killing not board control scenario models with flamethrowers that are too slow to get to the fight are less than useless. Also, being forced into two groups instead of one, just to place those defensive pieces diminishes the first group twofold - both in points and in Strategic Command Token use by the opponent should I go first.
That's an interesting perspective. It is certainly presenting me with some distinct alternatives to my own preconceived notions.
> Linked AP HMGs are not a rarity in Ariadna. Um. If the Asura is in suppression and even assuming you can't find an angle from outside 24", a Grey in a core is 63% to wound and 30% to wound twice. You're taking down your opponent's 70-point model in two or three orders...
AD:Parachustist doesn't require a roll though? I mean... that's what I always do...? Granted, my playstyle is essentially "Bring a sack of bricks to a tactical black ops operation with the intent of bashing someone upside the head with it." "Table realities" is the keyword here: "Just shoot them" is my go-to strategy 9 times out of 10 and it usually works out decently well, but again, everybody's meta is different. I'm lucky enough to be the only bloodthirsty madman in the local meta who doesn't default to the mentality of ''Infinity is a game of subtle tactics where Order counts and ARO deterrents reign supreme." So I'm at least lucky to be in the position of ''You're not going to explicitly counter ONE guy."
Yet another Jammer makes the Krakots with Grenades (and maybe C+/Superjump) and LGLs in Vanilla/Sectorials even more usful to have around. While they're not reliable by themselves, they give you options. In between just getting LOF on the Jammer, being able to avoid its ZOC and other options to get him like C+/Superjump you can deal with that one linked idiot a lot better than you can deal with a Jammer in Marker State. The Markers are less dangerous though, B2 WIP17 with Sixth Sense is a pretty damn annoying risk to take. Removing the auto success makes BTS6+ a lot better at dealing with them. Other than that, N3 is done, time to accept that's how it's gonna be till N4 after the FAQ explicitly made B2 Jammers with +3 WIP possible. Next stop N4, there's going to be a lot to be salty about, if they remain unchanged, Jammers could be a likely candidate then.
General question, but how does Hacking work in the same situation of ZoC without LoF in ARO? Obviously if the unit is not hackable, there's a big difference between a Jammer and a Hack, but just curious as it's a more general situation. Also, so the Isolated guy can't cancel it by any means other than an engineer fixing him? Or did I miss something? Lastly, the ZoC rules say "change facing or reset unless you have a special skill or Equipment". Since a Jammer is a Weapon rather than a Skill or Equipment, are we sure it can be used in ARO?
Jammer is a BS Attack and those have the ARO label. Apart from that, I wouldnt be sad, if Jammers would be nerved or completely changed. They are such a low skill-high reward piece of equipment for the one that uses them and high skill-low reward for the opponent. There are other ways for area denial and short range AROs. All of the units with jammers now, could be changed into Minelayers with E-Maulers. Still works as DZ defending measure, when going second and and you have to use orders to deploy the others. By far not as good as Jammers, but still good enough. On top of that, if its really true, that a Jammer is only 1 pt., then wtf? Minelayer is at least 2 points and often 0,5 SWC, but worse in most aspects, than a Jammer. Something should be definitely changed then.
Yeah, but the Zone of Control rules are specific about what can be declared. The Jammer seems to be the only Weapon that is No LoF, so that's why I was also curious about hacking. So, Jammer is a BS attack which can be used in an ARO, except that the ZoC rules mention exceptions, which the Jammer is not in. Of course, the BS attack lists "The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF." which obviously affects the Jammer, but is the intent that this is only in Active Turn, or should ZoC allow weapons in ARO specifically. As I said, the Jammer is the only BS weapon in this category, so knowing what was intended would reflect on that situation specifically.
Forget the ZOC rules. Hacking and BS Attack are seperate Skills. Hacking and Jammers happen to have ZOC as range.
The problem with the linked Jammer is that Jammers are a BS attack, which means that your fireteam can all declare shoot. So then your opponent has two options: shoot back (or dodge), or reset. If you shoot (or dodge) you take the hit from the Jammer, if you reset you take a hit from everybody else. A good nerf would be to give the Jammer diffrentiating range bands, from 0-4 is 0 range, 4-8 is -3 range. Or you could make it so the Jammer has no bonuses on units it can see, but is on -6 to units it cannot see. And one final last idea, The Jammer loses it's ability to hit units it can't see, and instead gains more range (0-16?) and speculative fire. I know that none of those suggestions fit the fluff, but it is not about staying true to the fluff. Change the rules, then change the fluff. I'm all for fluuf and having a story behind things (somthing I love about this game) but this is an instance where fluff takes a back seat. I think that no matter what happens that Jammers should still be good (not OP) but the opposing player should not feel like the enjoyability is being sucked out of the game.
Works the same. Only difference in targeting and in this case is that Jammer gets Fireteam bonuses and Hacking has more targets that aren't affected by it. No LOF label is used to denote skills and equipment that can be used without LOF, thus satisfying the rules for Zone of Control ARO.
I'm just trying to see all the rules interactions and how they work out. Why "forget ZoC" rules? The BS Attack rules encompass a bunch of variations, so trying to explore what was intended. Dodge doesn't work vs Comms attacks, which is just Cybermines and Jammer for Ballistic, the cybermine doesn't have No LoF though. Some of the issues weren't really issues before the link team I guess, but the main thing bugging me is that you could just go around Isolating people and they can never get out of it without an Engineer to help them.
It's just odd to me since the Jammer seems to be it's own thing and they don't seem to integrate well. Since there are Hacking Programs that Isolate, the Jammer is obviously intentionally set up this way (using Ballistics without the option to dodge), so you'd think they intentionally meant it to enjoy all the benefits of being a gun, but don't seem to keep the disadvantages of say, hacking programs or the cybermine.
In this whole debate, didn't you forget those guys? Compared to Eraser a 5-linked Jammer isn't that much better, maybe a 6% better outcome. Nevertheless I think that below could be a fun list. Spoiler: Fun list Why just one Jammer? ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 9 1 1 RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 24) LÉI GŌNG Shock Marksman Rifle, Nanopulser, Blitzen / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 34) ZHANSHI Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 16) ZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) LÓNG YÁ 2 Panzerfaust, Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines / Electric Pulse. (0 | 20) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) GROUP 2 7 1 1 YĚ MĀO AP Spitfire / Pistol, CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32) YĚ MĀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 28) TIAN GǑU (1st Section) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Jammer / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 25) HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) SHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5) 5 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army
I don't think I've ever really seen people complain about the Heckler or Zulu, or at least the complaints died down quickly. In other words, it's not necessarily the Jammer, itself, that's the problem (though some have argued even that could be toned down), but spammability (Mutts), or synergy with other skills/equipment (Spec Ops and now the Tian Gou).
Based on points cost and AVA, I would put Kriigel in roughly the same bucket as Zulus and Hecklers. I admit I did forget about them, though.
