I had to google this, and apparently y'all are accusing players of being members of the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps?
Best case for the Banner player, it's 68 points, yeah? But If I can't see any FT members outside of 8", they also can't see me outside of 8". The Jammer ignores LOF, but the player severely restricted any other utility that team could have had. If it's a speed-bump in the DZ and that's all it is, then is it getting in the way of the mission? For all that, Camo can still approach without being targeted until discovered, and under the circumstances described above, there won't be many chances to discover (though still vulnerable during the reactive, obviously). Holoechoes provide the same benefit as they do against flash pulses and those troops have utility besides baiting the jammer. Besides, the model cannot Jammer me after my second skill declaration unless one of those skills was an attack against the jammer. SSL2 still requires the user to be attacked. Don't get me wrong, the Jammer can ARO me from outside of LOF, but not with SSL2. And if they do that, I know which one it is, which limits the space it's blocking off. I'm currently playing QK, so I'm looking at this from that POV, but I have Bashi. I have YY (who'd still get their impetuous while isolated). Hawwa have a good chance to approach. Plus linked Ghulam LGL. If I really need to dig them out, I have options, several of which i'm taking already. Like I say, I don't think it's a big deal. Is it annoying? Sure is. But I should have some advantages AND my opponent should have some advantages. That's how things are fun.
I'm going to like this purely because I learned some new ways to deal with Jammers here. v: Granted, I've only seem Jammers used by two local players ( A Nomad and a Haqq. ), but still.
@Ceilican We're not talking about the DZ. We're talking about squatting on the midfield objectives, putting out a 16" bubble of no-go. Read the rest of the thread. Also, as @Sabin76 points out, you are dead wrong about the Jammer. It can ARO you without an attack. It has SSL2 from the link, anything you do inside ZoC provokes an ARO and Stealth doesn't work. That's what SSL2 -does-. If you are confused about this basic mechanic of the game, you probably should read the rules again and play against some linkteams more. This is in a sectorial that already has a crapton of the best midfield skirmishers Yu Jing can field, plus zero-SWC minelayer camo bots with FD1 and awesome ARO weapons for 20 points. Those things are cool, great list, but they harmonize with the insane brokenness of the linked Jammer so well that there's little chance for you to flank that link. As for the link, at very least probably Lei Gong in there to help them advance. Example list was on the first page. Still has room for skirmishers and an order group dedicated to just throwing Monks at the opponent (which was already a great thing in vanilla YJ, now even better in WB). Like @Mahtamori said: You can defeat this broken-ass Jammer thing, but at serious cost to you. it's like Muttawiah in that way. Either you spend a whole turn's orders killing 20 points worth of dudes, or they get in an Isolate your troops without breaking a sweat... but in this case the link thing makes it nastier in the reactive, not the active like the Mutts.
Perhaps you should not be opining on their effectiveness then. I use them. A lot. They're nasty when not linked. Linked, they are pure brokenness.
As I said earlier. I should N E V E R be contributing to anything related to balancing. I'm too stupid for that, and I'm not putting any sarcasm in this either.
Wasn't meant to sidetrack it there. Honestly have no idea how we sidetracked this far away from a simple remark about fireteam spacings, actually. No hard feelings, alright? v:
A Linked Jammer, which is what i've been focused on, is in the DZ. Tian Gou don't have forward deployment. A Spec-Ops model might, but the surrounding link team probably doesn't. Are you sure I'm confused? the rules for SSL1 is what's letting someone delay ARO, but they still cannot respond with attacks unless attacked. They can respond with Change Facing or Reset per the ZOC rules. Jammer is a BS Attack by its own rules. Advancing opens up the entire link team to ARO. And aside from being hidden, the Tian Gou doesn't have any extra survivability. My point was also that you don't necessarily HAVE to defeat this Jammer thing. And if I want to, i'm typically taking the tools I need anyway.
" Stealth, Sixth Sense and Deployable Equipment This Special Skill is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill nor, for obvious reasons, against Deployable Weapons or Equipment (Mines, E/Maulers...)." SSN2 disable stealth
@Sangarn beat me to it. @Ceilican , dead sure. And if the Jammer is sitting midfield and you need to capture one or two objectives for a scenario (or close to kill hiding opposing troops), yes you do have to defeat the Jammer guy. You're not getting anyone into the midfield without them getting Isolated otherwise, which precludes getting more orders to either grab objectives or kill dudes.
Also, the entire thread has been about this linkteam being in the midfield, @Ceilican . They walk there. Under smoke from 5-point Monks, or shooting with Lei Gong if there's a visor on the opposing side. Perhaps you missed all that. Read the thread. They are also a problem in the DZ, if you have to go kill them for the mission. Thanks for pointing that out.
Stealth has no bearing here. model activates in zoc Jammer can aro or it can delay If I attack, it can respond however. If I don’t, it’s limited to the responses in the zoc rules: change facing or reset. I’ve read the thread. Several times before replying. The team won’t magically end up in the midfield. The player has to take on some effort and risk to get there. When it is there, isolated units can still button the button. Unless the jammer is literally on top of the objective, there’s an approach with less risk than other approaches. Im not saying this is easy. I’m not saying it’s not annoying. But it is a problem that is solvable using tools you’re probably already bringing.
There are some issues with the wording of Sixth Sense which are directly contradicted by examples of play in the book. Being attacked is not a necessary trigger for Sixth Sense to activate. Hopefully this gets addressed in N4. Edit: Alternatively, you need to check the ZoC rules: Enemies entering or acting inside the Zone of Control of a trooper while remaining outside that figure's LoF can be reacted to, but only by using the Common Skill Change Facing or Reset, unless the trooper has a Special Skill or piece of Equipment that can be used without LoF. Jammer can be used without LoF, so is valid as a ZoC ARO.
I'm a bit curious how you can come up with a logic that allows you to respond only with ZoC AROs, because I think you're reading the logic regarding responding to attacks backwards. Also, that line is a blatant lie as has been evidenced throughout N3's history of responses and rules examples; you can respond with stuff that doesn't produce Face to Face such as with a DTW. What the line I think you're reading is saying is that if attacked you may respond with 360 vision (for simplicity's sake we'll put it like that). It doesn't say that "you may only attack if attacked". The alternative is that you're reading the requirement which, if followed, would make Sixth Sense as a Skill completely useless (and would not only prevent you from delaying your ARO unless the first Short Skill is an attack but would also prevent ZoC AROs) The line we're using is the second to last one that says you may delay your declaration. It all depends on. Nothing is foolproof. However, your line of reasoning is a bit off. It's like saying a Kamau is a terrible unit because if it isn't covering a place you want to go it's not in your way. A poorly placed unit is always going to matter little but a poorly placed Tian Gou isn't much of a tactical investment so it doesn't really matter much if it's never used. If the investment is even made. You won't ever know until it's affected your tactical movement. Most of all, though, we're not arguing that it's impossible, we're arguing that it's too annoying and too costly if the unit is placed well.
Ok, I’ll roll off that. It still can’t target a camo marker in ARO (requires intuitive attack) and it can still target a holoecho. The sky is not falling is my only point.
[QUOTE="Mahtamori, post: 333609, member: Maybe Jammers will get toned down, but I highly doubt CB sees the problem the same way (parts of) the community does. Personally I take this more as an indication that what'll happen to Jammers is going to be relatively mild.[/QUOTE] Anytime I stop and think how well CB understands their own game and how list's look *in the wild*, I remember they made CBLs. I then look at them and worry.
the line I was reading was in the requirements section. In L1, the enemy must declare an attack against the user. In L2 the user must be the target of an attack.
