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New Kusanagi Incoming...

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Ignovus, Nov 19, 2019.

  1. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    tbf you can use it with the pitcher and without a pistol it's helpful at close range. It comes up decently often, just maybe not as much as it costs. Not like the xvisor on Intruder that only helps with discover+snipe.
     
  2. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    While I agree that there are tools that could be "fixed", I do not expect CB to fix it, at least in nomads.

    mobility is not "high tech", more armour plates are not high tech, sensors are aviable to all factions with remotes so I cannot see any "higher tech" there. All of that is good thech, yes, and is in theme with nomad inventive, but nothing out of the ordinary for a faction that, supposedly, was the first one to win a war using mainly remotes and makes more use of them. That is the point I try to make. And is not only related to remotes, but all the faction instead (for nomads, the lore is more used as a limiter than a way to expand it). What you talk is more about unit dessign, in were I admit nomads are more in the standard place (only a bit of units really well optimized, only a bit of units badly optimized, most of nomads units are in the midfield). A mobility unit with mid-long range weapons and tools to maximize its range at a too high cost for its real effectiveness because mobility is not so much needed for long range units and 360 is absurdly costly compared with almost every other equipment of similar price. The same for the observancy... kusanagi, the hero that discovered the ghost conflict (or was translated to phantom?), and her observancy has not much real tools to deffend against that kind of TO invasion, and the hacking fireteam rules didn't make into the real game in the end so they had to "fix" the custodians haris because was completelly unuseful.

    This comes from long ago, but has not much to do with kusanagi, so we can talk in a new thread if you want.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    "mobility is not high tech"

    Dude, really?

    Nomad REMs are more mobile than both PanO and YJ REMs while also being more survivable and carrying as heavy or heavier weapons.

    They're literally next gen if you look at it as a Mobility / Survivability / Firepower triangle.

    The fact that this doesn't translate on the table as better performance IS a problem.
     
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  4. Zmaj

    Zmaj Active Member

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    Sin-Eater + Moira/Custodier Duo would be really fluffy, but I don't know if it would bring anything to the game. That tag idea looks nice! Sorry for crashing the discussion.
     
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  5. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Allows for the Custodier+Moira Sniper+Rev. Healer haris which, in theory, would be a great defensive piece.
     
  6. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of he observance TAG, and I like the concept of that haris, but I do not see why putting an expensive hacker in a haris is a good idea, it will gain nothing from the haris, but will be a weak point for it (KHD). I would prefeer the custodian in the core (gaining sixth sense), but that would completelly displace the moira AHD
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'd go the HMG for an aggressive Haris at a price point cheaper than Kusanagi.

    But his question was about the Sin Eater + [Observance] Duo.

    I don't think it'd add anything. Maybe the Mk12 Sin Eater providing cover for a Healer or Custodier could work.
     
  8. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Its cheaper than a Moira core (the haris is already borderline prohibitively expensive for a defensive piece), enemy KHDs aren't that much of a threat and if one manages to get to her you probably have bigger problems in the game overall.

    HMG Moira v Kusangi in an assault haris is an interesting discussion where Kusangi probably comes out on top in the end but two interesting options either way.

    When ever I look at BJC I'm drawn to the idea of swapping between multiple solo operators as the situation demands while backed up with defensive fireteam fire support instead of utilizing assault teams. Though this may be due to me finding the solo pieces infinitely more interesting than the teams.
     
  9. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I think we have different metas.. Pitchers and deployable repeaters are not so rare anymore (our hacking is not so above others) and our own repeaters are also a double edged sword. Is not so rare to see an interventor be killed by a KHD, so a custodian is easier.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    First list I played seriously with BJC was Sin Eater HMG, Moira Core (HMG, EM LGL, Healer BSG), Custodier Haris (HD+, AHD, Healer BSG). Good fun, but hardly competitive recently.

    Sin-Eaters add good defensive solo options, so I like the Haris' offensively.
     
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    What's the actual issue with completely displacing the Moira AHD? It's largely a legacy profile.

    Observance works a lot better if you specialise the Moiras as shooters, the Healers as hitters and the Custodiers as Hackers.

    Add a Multi option to Custodiers, add White Noise to the AHD profiles. Lose the BSG. You end up with the same number of profiles.
     
  12. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Is a personal preference. I don't like existing models to be replaced and sent to the shelves because there is a direct better option. I think is bad dessign. If, for example in an hipotetical case where custodians could go in the core, instead of AHD custodians there were KHD custodians, then the AHD moira could still have her place, her option.

    but yes, they are not so competitive. One of the reasons is that religious troop was costly skill in n2, and in n3 is a reduction cost skil, but moiras still pay for it instead of getting the discount (because they were not revised in n3). Other is the "we create a hackers haris because there will be special rules for them" but those rules never came, and so on. I suppose the cost problem will adressed on n4 without a doubt, the same that the hackers haris will never appear.
     
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  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I am yet to find a hacking device that can hack through impersonation.

    Edit: Also our repeaters are only a double edged sword if you only have one hacker, if they try to use one of our repeaters they are going to get dogpiled by at least 2 KHDs in addition to the target and with breakwater and wip 14 you have a half decent chance at surviving.

    This is also predicated on you not just deleting them from the table first.
     
    #93 Tourniquet, Feb 27, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2020
  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    I'd rather see the Moira be the KHD so that way the Custodier entry isn't just the "inferior" Interventor entry.
     
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  15. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I experimented with Moira AHD for a bit and found the addition of MULTI rifle to make it a pretty good solo option. Not worth the points but once I'm on the table it felt good.

    I never use much Corregidor assault Haris but I find them very exciting in Qapu. I'm hoping to see Wildcats get more interesting. Jaguars don't feel great to me because of the lack of support weapon and Massacre requirement.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    With the Jag haris you need to use support weapons from other pieces to open a hole for them to exploit, then throw them into that breach and watch them make a mess.
     
  17. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That's not something I'm interested in. I have a lot of force in that space already. Maybe if I could replace massacre with lupe. Definitely if I could put a Tsyklon or Lunakhod in.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They're kinda different than your usual go to choices because they can exploit harder.

    The Lupe, Massacre, Jag version is particularly good at it: efficiently smoke firelanes over 16", Lupe fights 4-16" and Massacre fights 0-8". You can slingshot the Jaguar to get suicide Chain Rifle or DA CCW kills while consolidating with the other two.

    Lupe on Suppressive just outside their DZ before an opponent's Impetuous phase is glorious.

    Lupe, Massacre, Dak as your first turn objective grabber in Supplies also does well. Allows you to push Lupe and Massacre up the board, then hold them for T2/3 behind a Moran. This allows you to preserve your AD and Bandits for deeper strikes or late game to take your opponent's boxes off them.
     
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  19. Jason839

    Jason839 Well-Known Member

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    That’s my experience with normal Moira’s as a whole. I love the 5 man but it feels aweful when you are building a List. Then you get it on the table and it just destroys everything when supported well and it doesn’t feel bad abymore.
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    * woman. Unless you want to be shriven, because that's how you get shriven. ;)

    Or, it all melts to a single template. :'(

    I enjoy Moiras for casual games where you know the match up and can tailor to a single mission. You can ensure you play to their strengths in that situation.

    If I know one of my mates is playing Caledonia, I'll seriously consider a Moira Core. It's the only thing I know that can reliably keep them pinned down.

    But I dislike them for serious tournie play where you need to manage their weaknesses across multiple different missions. This is where their fragility and poor optimisation hurts. They end up very swingy depending on table, opposition and dice.

    It's not that they're bad, it's just that they're less good when compared with other options. It's why, before the meta shifted, I argued that Grrls should be BS12 PH14 to bring them down to Moira level not that Moiras should be buffed to make them more consistently competitive with Grrls.
     
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