The issue is that the implementation of hidden deployment already relies heavily on homebrew rules to work anything close to fair / verifiable, and introduces problems with checking line of site for AROs from a point on the table determined by a rough doodle on a napkin. I haven't thought of a better replacement mechanic yet so it's better if it's just rare. I don't want Ariadna hidden deployment spam lists to be the new thing at all.
I agree that if offers a lot of potential to differentiate the skirmishers which is definitely a good thing for faction/unit identity and overlapping profiles. However, my only concern is as @the huanglong says: Hidden deployment is a very powerful skill, due to the inability to counter it at all. Camo units can be discovered, sensored, intuitive attacked, baited, or even just avoided. Mimetism (-3/6) has DTW, spec fire, and MSV. Stealth has sixth sense and active turn. HD has nothing (apart from, arguably, knowing the opponents faction, overlapping defence, and luck). The thing that keeps HD in check is the fact that it is nested in the expensive and relatively rare skill of TO Camo. I would be very cautious on anything that lets HD become more available or cheaper.
By declaring Sensor, the user may make a Normal WIP+6 Roll (without Range or Camouflage and Hiding Modifiers) to simultaneously Discover all enemy troopers, Weapons or pieces of Equipment in the Hidden Deployment, Camouflaged or TO Camouflaged states inside the user's Sensor Area. (emphasis mine) http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Sensor So, knowledge of deployment practices of HD, sense for the terrain and Sensor skill counter HD decently enough.
Depends on who and what gets Hidden Deployment. The existence of Crocmen and TO Proxy - not to mention Hac Tao or Sphinx! - already puts a fairly high bar on what's powerful. The issue will be if they will make spammable troopers have Hidden Deployment. Hunzakut and Metro's should absolutely not get this, in fact, Hidden Deployment desperately needs to be kept far away from Ariadna in general, their marker state game is already fairly oppressive. But if there is potential in adding it to units that need it such as Hulang (which will make it interesting in that it won't have a marker state to gain surprise attack from) or edit:"removing it from" units that could probably do without. P.S. Looks like they've combined Surprise Attack and Surprise Shot, which honestly is fairly welcome.
the problems will come when some troopers loose unneeded skills so they get cheaper (for example, loosing stealth for long range non-infiltration TOs) just to get optimized, and other will get unneeded skills and will get more expensive because reasons. I hope CB work the same way for all the factions
That and you can add a discount to some TO SK by giving them HD + Mimmetism-6 but not Camouflage or Surprise Attack. Perhaps interesting for say a Hexa.
So this is only a problem when it creates serious imbalance: either within a faction (unit X is so good that you must take it in all lists to the detriment of other choices) or between factions (unit X is so good that it makes factions with it perform well above the curve). IE optimisation on the level seen by Posthumans is bad, optimisation on the level seen by Dakini is good.
Fluff-wise, Hidden Deployment requires absolute top-tier systems. We'd probably only ever see anything close to a cheap Hidden Deployment unit in PanO, who may frankly need it judging by how Vanilla is going lately.
Hexa are outclassed by Lynx by virtue of being almost literally the same but more expensive, so it's going to ve interesting to see if and how they get altered, but I'd like to see Sphinx and Cutter (i.e. TAGs period) lose HD simply to rein in the power curve slightly, while Hulang and Locust are excellent candidates for gaining HD that do not currently have it without also gaining marker state.
Hulang can indeed only profit from this new system. I hope CB acts on it and doesn't just leave them unchanged.
Hexa being outclassed isn't really an issue in and of itself, how they fit into the faction makes a big difference. That being said, it'd be nice if they were different and slightly worse, rather than just worse. I'm not sure if Counter-Intel works while in HD, but if it does then adding Counter-Intel but losing Camouflage would differentiate them. Fits the Hexahedron fluff well.
I *loathe* Counter-Intelligence. It's often present in factions that tend to go well beyond the 11-12 figures where you really need it, but when it comes to places where it is thematic and appropriate none so much as in the cat-and-mouse game as between Hexahedron and <I forget the name of Yu Jing's deep AI/hacking intelligence service> and if there's one place where it makes perfect sense to have counter-intelligence for one side and a skill that negates or overpowers it on the other, it's Pan-O and Yu Jing - though considering the time line between them it probably makes sense for Counter-Intelligence in ISS and for the overpowering skill on Hexas. Yeah, it should work in Hidden Deployment, though it sort of is part of one of N3's unanswered questions together with "can I use Strategos 3 when I'm holding Saladin in reserve?" --- Back on topic before Carlos' bombshell hit the thread, here's a controversial statement: Hidden Deployment and Airborne Deployment shouldn't cause Loss of Lieutenant. These profiles usually come with an SWC penalty and scenarios where killing them scores objectives should routinely force them to be deployed and marked.
Yeah. I like that. Particularly since there's so many ways to leverage the Lt order these days. You'd have to make it such that NCO can only benefit from the Lt order of an Lt that's actually on the table. This would mean you're basically losing the Lt order plus any additional cost associated with the Lt for functional immunity to LOL. Very interesting in say CJC where a Hellcat Lt would be a competitive choice compared to an Alg. Hold it till turn three, at which point you don't care that it's likely to die. A nice but minor bonus over having your Lt on the board but hidden in your back line all game. But it also means that it's high risk to aggressively exploit a hole earlier in the game, so there's a downside. Even for missions where the Lt isn't Open Information, simply requiring them to be deployed on the table as a figure or marker would work. They'd still be technically legal, if sub-optimal choices,
It's less that nobody who doesn't have a fluff justification for it has it (although I'd argue Puppetmasters are tenuous at best: it makes sense that Tunguska has it but... Puppetmasters?), and more that factions which probably didn't need it mechanically got access to it (Vanilla Nomads, Vanilla CA and OSS) while troops for whom counter intelligence is their whole shtick did not.
Not sure I'm behind Yu Jing getting counter intelligence whilst Kuang Shi remain in their current form. I'd rather keep it away from factions with cheap spammable orders.
I have to agree that pupetmasters having it is strange. But who could get it instead? Looking at the pupetmaster profile, it seems a costly hability to me (around 5-6 points) so almost in anyone else would be too expensive, and puppetmaster would be too cheap without it. Also is obvious that CB will not bring command/order management/leadership skills to nomads more than this, and they didn't create any new profile related to infowar (only hacking), so I do not see much other place to it. There is also the joke that they brought that skill when Limited Insertion was a thing, for a L.I focused sectorial, in a unit clearly dessigned for L.I he is talking about fluf/lore, not faction status.
By that logic Yu Jing should also not have a secret police. -.-;; (Because they all got murdered in their barracks, you see #bigbrainreasoning ) Oh yeah, of course. ISS in particular really needs to stay the ever living eff away from that skill. Invincible Army, possibly Military Order, and maybe Tunguska and Morats would likely be the mechanically most sound places to have such a game mechanic (and not their corresponding vanilla factions). Though looking over that list, it'd probably make sense to rename it to disciplined leadership or some such.
Nah, dakinis are probably slightly too optimized as well; you don't see the other fireteams in OSS too often.
