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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Allow me to detract from @colbrook and @inane.imp opinion without disagreeing with them;

    I consider that HMG vs Spitifre is not a given obvious choice for certain units, and that this in itself says that the balance isn't very far off. However, when I look at the lower burst weapons I start seeing a trend, even if it is not the two machineguns I'm comparing them to, simply put paying to upgrade a Combi to a Missile Launcher can be a hard sell for me. Simply by anchoring my expectations between a Light Shotgun in the lower end and the HMG in the upper end, I think the distribution between them is off, not that the HMG itself is too low or too high performing.

    The HMG is absolutely necessary to shift certain pieces and to gain a viable active turn advantage.

    At the same time, a Multi Sniper is overvalued quite a bit - it is not the equal to a HMG, but a Shock Sniper tends to produce units with a comparable performance to the Multi Sniper against most targets, but at a price that puts it more comfortably in a position where it can compete with the HMG.
    Same goes for the Missile Launcher, which with its rather punitive range bands and extremely low burst makes it have great problems winning AROs, but at the same time at almost the same cost and application, a Rocket Launcher doesn't have quite the same problems.

    There's definitely work to be done in terms of weapon prices, but I think the HMG as the representative of the upper bounds of prices is roughly where it ought to be. Shifting Combis down a point or two might have a similar effect to nerfing HMG range bands, but without running the same risks of potentially removing the only universally available solution to brute force a Kamau (as the example of current ultimate long range ARO)
     
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  2. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    Although it might be easier to erase the abomination the Wildcard linked Kamau sniper is. Not that I have to suffer much from it, but ruleswise this is just not fun. If the Varuna Player would at least have to take 4 other, pretty useless and pretty pricey Kamau to get it ... okay, but Wildcard ... lame!
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    We're essentially talking about ways to fix CB valuing DAM/ARM etc more highly than simply winning the FTF. HMGs reliably win the FTF.

    It's what I consider to be the critical error in the redesign of Suckerpunch. I'd have much preferred to see lower DAM and a +3 ATK MOD, with DAM dropped far enough to result in a similar chance of doing a wound in ARO vs RedRum as prior to the change. This would have represented a survivability buff, not a lethality buff.

    Following this logic:

    If I was going to nerf HMGs I'd probably just drop their DAM to 14 (and maybe a Spitfire's to 13). This would open up more space between HMGs (and Spitfires) and Anti-ARM weapons for cracking hard targets (ie. Make @Spitfire_TheCat 's lived experience the statistical norm). It makes a clear difference between "can reliably win FTFs" and "will put its target down when it does".

    But, Mahtamori' s suggestion of just looking at the prices of low burst weapons to buff MSRs/Feurbachs/MLs etc is probably better. It's worth noting a Feurbach costs 1pt more than a HMG.
     
    #1903 inane.imp, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  4. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the HMG is probably not that far off in terms of points. Moreover, I do not think that any problem lies in its capacity to overpower anyone in a long range exchange.

    However, I think it would improve the game if it was less suited to use as a mobile weapon to press into the enemy’s half of the table. If it would get worse in its lower range bands, for example by increasing its -3 to 16”, it could retain its primary role while at the same time promoting the use of other weapon systems to exploit the openings it creates in the opponent’s defense.

    A concrete example is my own use of dual linked HMGs in Caledonia. Not only is it the best weapon for engaging the opponent at range, it is also the weapon that I move up to attack at medium to close range. The way to make the Wulver Mk12 more attractive is to make the HMG worse for close range work. Admittedly, this also has to do with available link options, but I think this could be a simple change that would make the choice between HMG and spitfire-equivalent more interesting.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not going to claim this is a good idea, but it's an idea and I got it because of reading your post;

    What if units who aren't a TAG, Az'rail or Yan Huo (whom are built specifically to handle the recoil of very heavy weapons) couldn't go above +0 unless they also had Partial Cover to brace against or were prone when allocating 4 or more Burst?
     
  6. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I like your idea!

    It is interesting, but given Infinity's All-At-Once order resolution, it could be a bit tricky to implement. An other way of accomplishing nearly the same thing would be to add an Entire Order SHOOT that would give access to bonuses over +0 for anyone, whereas only specially equipped troops (I'd go so far as to allow it for all HI) could use them on the move without penalty (basically functioning like they do today).

    You could even make it even more granular with light (rifles, shotguns), medium (Spitfires and their derivatives, sniper rifles) and heavy weapons (HMGs, Missile launchers, HRMCs). Light weapons could be fired as a short skill with no penalty by anyone, medium as a short skill by regular HI and heavy as a short skill by the units you mentioned above. Conversely, non-power armoured troops might not even be able to fire heavy weapons on the move, but could fire medium weapons while moving without gaining the +3 mods.

    Come to think of it, this could help make a nice distinction between HI (high ARM troops that CAN fire an HMG at full efficiency while moving) and MI (High ARM troops that need to be stationary to fire an HMG at full efficiency), while taking away the 4-2 move that makes MI so unwieldy today...
     
  7. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I think layering in more rules and exceptions to those rules isn't the way to go – there has to be a more elegant fix to the supremacy of the (often linked) HMG. IMHO the fix should be in the link teams themselves instead of the weapons they use. There's plenty of HMG wielders in the game that just aren't threatening, no one is shaking in their boots over a lone ORC HMG or something equivalent. If you want to incentivize people to take the Nisse sniper over it's better, HMG counterpart, make the multi sniper worth taking. Reduce it's cost, make it higher DMG, etc etc.
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    This is a very important post. I was thinking about it the other day and settled on making the MSR +6 at 24-32" and 32-40". Couldn't decide if that meant it should take a B nerf down to 1. Again this is something that works better if the damn link bonus is removed.
     
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  9. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    That's certainly an interesting idea – combined with MMLX you get some pretty freaking crazy odds on snipers though.
     
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  10. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I don't want any weapons needed to kill linked AROs nerfed rn.
     
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  11. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It goes a step further than this in that it dominates discussion on what constitutes a good gunfighter profile in a given army/sectrorial, as it always comes down to which is the best HMG platform they have access to and whether or not it can go into fireteams and if not if it has enough to make up for that.

    1 of 2 things should happen, the weapon either needs to be nerfed so it isn't strangling out most other options and single handedly invalidating a lot of the direct ARO game. Whether thats through points/SWC/Damage/Range band adjustment.

    Or the platforms can carry the weapon need to be restricted, have it removed from everything that isn't a REM, HI, TAG or the like and replace those older profiles with spitfires.

    Also nerf Fireteams? Their bonuses really need to be re-evaluated along with their compositions.
     
  12. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I feel like I and most other people would not notice Marksman lolvel X being deleted. Like full auto, it's silly that aim carefully is a rare skill.

    The more controversial opinion is that all levels of Marksman skill be deleted.
    There is already a mechanic to show that a trooper has high skill with ballistics called Ballistic Skill.
     
  13. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    This is definitely a good way to deal with LI fireteam HMGs, although the untouched Dakini fireteam HMG might become even more frustrating in comparison!

    Anecdotally, I've rarely encountered linked LI HMG as normally the fireteam is unwieldy as an attack piece and normally kept as a defensive fireteam with MSR and ML/HRLs.

    This has been brought up enough times that it bears considering.
    A simple solution (mentioned, I believe, in the Full Auto discussion earlier) is to change the +3 BS bonus to be Suppression -3.
    This prevents the crazy mod stacking you get in fireteams (especially with high BS wildcards *cough* Sheskiin *cough*, returns BS14 to a scary score, fits the fluff, and would align with a Suppression skill/equipment that could be given to Yan Huo, KB, HRMC, etc.
     
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  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    It also keeps it out the hands of solo LI, MI and skirmishers. I see them every now and then mostly in a haris or core that just sits in back in the Deployment/FD zone and has the HMG stick it's face out to kill everything it can draw LoF to before pulling back.
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You're doing that thing again where you're conflating the mechanical usefulness of a skill with the aptness of the post hoc explanation. Sure you can explain all forms of increased accuracy as + BS, but that limits options. For example MML2 is almost, but not quite, +3 BS: that 'not quite' is an important distinction.

    Personally I think Marksmanship Level 1 should be combined with FAT1, because I'm an advocate for reducing the amount of Shock in the game.*

    Equally MMLX is probably just something most troopers can do, but it's only represented on troopers who make a habit out of it: this is similar to the way that every trooper doesn't just have Expendable (3) Grenades. Sure it's unrealistic that an Intruder cannot make the Aimed Shot that is MMLX, but from an abstract game play POV it's useful.

    * Reducing Shock also relatively improves DA as the options for killing a target dead in 1 hit become more limited.
     
  16. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Ignoring the cover penalty to BS is a useful bonus that can make a gunfighter better without further inflating BS levels.

    Whatever it's called, it serves a purpose in the game, and even has a degree of counter-play (it has no effect on Impetuous troopers, so an Aragoto Spitfire or Penny treats Wild Bill as any other BS13 rifle).
     
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  17. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    The game should represent the lore, not the other way round. I don't think it's a coincidence that garbage rules tend to have garbage explanations in the text.

    It's pretty much plus +3 BS. That "not quiet" isn't just not "an important distinction", it's a worthless distinction. It is a +3 BS that only doesn't apply when you have already outplayed your target and caught it out of cover. Which is a rare thing when you are a Spetznaz fighting at 16-32 inches. There is no clever counter to counter Marksmanship 2, or skilled interaction. It's just a cheap trick to undercost +3 BS. It badly needs to go.

    Yeah shock needs a massive cutback. Off the top of my head it needs to be taken off knives, sniper rifles, SMGs, heavy pistols, marksmanship, AP mines.

    Lol at "MMLX" , "habit" and "useful" in the same paragraph.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    See this is where we fundamentally disagree. I think the game should be fun and interesting, the justification for why a mechanic works a particular way is a distant second.

    MML2 is another reason I think the ARM bonus for Cover should go: the ARM bonus still makes you hug cover even though you're fighting something that ignores it. It undermines the difference between it and +3 BS.

    So it's not that I disagree with your critique entirely but rather that I think the solution is to emphasise these points of difference rather than simply go "it's just degrees of accuracy, so roll it all into BS".
     
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  19. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    The ARM bonus of cover has it's own problems. A target in cover is a more difficult shot (BS mod is appropriate) but either the target was hit or it wasn't. But worse than that, it makes a joke of AP weapons as most ARM in the game comes from cover.

    Moreover, the ARM bonus of cover doesn't apply against the only thing it should apply against! indiscriminate weapons that would spread the impact between the target and the cover and hit both, i.e. templates! In the end shotguns end up bypassing far more ARM in INFINITY than AP weapons.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Your group must not play with impetuous a lot and you do realize that Marksmanship LX has been changed, right? Its only problem now is the logistical one of getting into position to use it, otherwise it's very powerful, particularly against units in cover and particularly in factions with access to Nimbus.

    And Shock absolutely positively has to stay on mines and knives (because of stealth take downs), but I wouldn't mind seeing AP be the default for Heavy Pistol, though.
     
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