Hey guys, thanks for helping me out. After playing Bakunin for a long time and giving shasvastii and NCA a try too, I tried to get into Corregidor and everything feels a little alien to me there. So far I had three matches with them and they have been the most frustrating, disapointing, table wiping losses I ever had. I figured that maybe the lists I played were to blame and it would be nice to get some people's thoughts on them. First Match: First Try ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 TSYKLON Feuerbach, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 34) TSYKLON Spitfire, Pitcher / Electric Pulse. (1 | 31) ALGUACIL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) JAZZ FTO . (0.5 | 18) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42) MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) GROUP 2 6 1 LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) HELLCAT Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21) WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 6 SWC | 299 Points Open in Infinity Army The plan was to strike with the Intruder first and leave the Feuerbach Tsyklon with the link out to aro. Then follow up with the Hellcat in the second turn and have the Spitfire Tsyklon ready whenever I need another attack piece. Mission was Firefight against Operations Aleph and I lost basically everything to a Danavas HD+ which entered the repeater range of a Moran and killing Jazz, Isolating both Tsyklons and the Lunokhod in Turn 1. In my own first turn the Intruder got one good shot before taking an unfortunat wound and the Danavas hacked the Hellcat of the table. In Turn 2 I was then shot into retreat quit quickly by a Garuda landing half an inch out of the Chainrifle range of the Jaguars, and a spitfire Arjuna. Second Match: Second Try ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 INTRUDER HMG, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 42) SEÑOR MASSACRE Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, E/M CCW. (0 | 26) LUPE BALBOA Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Panzerfaust, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) GROUP 2 8 ALGUACIL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) HELLCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28) JAZZ & BILLIE . (0.5 | 24) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) BILLIE Flash Pulse, E/Mauler / Electric Pulse. (0 | 6) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Plan was again to attack with the Intruder first, but this time having a link with Deadpool, Lupe, a Dak and 2 jaguars to back it up, since the hacking trauma the game before made me loose interest in remotes or HIs in this link. Mission was Acquisition against JSA. First turn went well with the Intruder killing everything left out to aro, the Moran taking an Objective and the Hellcat landing and killing cheerleaders before dying against the aro of a Karakuri. Opponents turn 1 however took out the Intruder and both Morans quite quickly with the Karakuri Harris and placing Yojimbo in a way the both of his Koalas covered my link. Turn 2 saw the then quite unfortunate end of Lupe and the Dak through Koalas, the Lunokhods unglorious death to Yojimbos aro, Deadpools killing Yojimbo and Jazz trying 4 times unsuccesfully to hack one of the karakuris. In my opponents next turn, the karakuris shot Deadpool and basically everything else. Third Match: Third Try ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 MOBILE BRIGADA HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 42) MOBILE BRIGADA Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 37) DAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) JAZZ FTO . (0.5 | 18) JAZZ Hacker Submachine Gun, Pitcher, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18) ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) SEÑOR MASSACRE (Fireteam: Haris) Breaker Combi Rifle, E/M Grenades, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, E/M CCW. (0.5 | 30) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) JAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10) MORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20) MORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) GROUP 2 5 1 ALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) ALGUACIL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) TRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) LUNOKHOD Heavy Shotgun, Heavy Flamethrower, D-Charges, CrazyKoalas (2) / Electric Pulse. (0 | 25) BANDIT Boarding Shotgun, E/Mauler / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 26) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Again Acquisition, this time against Varuna. Plan was to hit them hard with the Brigada in the Core link that hopefully was kept alive by the Dak while taking Stuff with the Bandit under the Cover of Koalas. I got turn 1, Brigada died to the Kamau Sniper, Bandit died to a Crocman, Deadpool managed to avoid the Kamau and kill the croc but was hit with a jammer in the process of doing so. In the next turn a WildParrot disabled the leftovers of the link and a Zulu Cobra slauthered its way through the squishy parts of my list, including my Lieutenant. The next turn was not really worth to mention and then my opponent killed the leftovers. Soo, are the Lists at fault or should I pick up knitting instead of tabletop gaming? I for my part was shocked by how easily my opponents outmaneuvered the Koalas, how vulnerable everything is to hacking when you don't have Zero Killerhackers and how hard it is to win firefights without ODD. Does anybody see a Problem he could point out to me?
3 matches down on luck is entirely possible. For example getting the HD+ thru the Koalas then winning with a firewall holding them down isn't a normal thing. You also might not be recognizing what the best maneuvers are with units that can't win in fair fights. If you are both in cover and in good range it better be with your intruder or Core. You need to swap which unit you're using to deny cover and take advantage of bad enemy rangebands. You always want to do that but now you need to. Bandit and Hellcat BSG are only superior against some targets, mostly groups. It removes a lot of your possible ranges. A lot of factions like to put all close range weapons on their side units and big guns on their main units. We don't have main units that can solve every problem. Shotguns are great but you want a spread of options, especially on your flankers. Playing corregidor is an exercise in using the basics of the game perfectly. Choose the right units and weapons and have those options available. Careful deployment. It's a simple faction but that doesn't make it easy. Personally I would put it down to a mix of luck and starting a new faction. Try to stick to similar lists that you tweak each time instead of wildly swapping. The list isn't going to run itself no matter what you change.
I'm going to reiterate what Loricus said. CJC is all about get the basics right. I describe it as a shiv: it's fragile, but boy is it perfect for stabbing people from behind in the kidneys. CJC has quite a few viable archetypes, and you played 3 very different ones across three games. I'd honestly settle on 1 or 2 core designs until you get comfortable with how the various pieces of that work together and then move on. Rereading this, my comments below are a touch brutal. But really I think you've got a solid basis to build off you're just making a few errors and mistakes. As I said, it can be fragile so mistakes usually cost you pieces. ----- First, linked Tsyklons rely on an Engineer for their long term survival: this allows you to exploit Unc 2 and Shock Immunity to keep them up over the course of a game. Taking linked Tsyklons without an Engineer does not leverage their strengths well at all. Second, while Jazz has good odds vs the Dansavas inside your own Repeaters it's not good enough to be reliable on her own. You really need a KHD in the list to keep Hackers alive. Bandits KHDs are perfectly serviceable and I highly recommend them. They aren't as single focus as Zero KHDs though, so you need to practice with them a bit until you get the most out of them (remember that, unlike Zeroes, Bandit KHDs are Attackers first, Hacking Defence second and Specialists a distant third). Third, Koalas have serious limitations compared to Mines. Not lease how easy they are to Dodge. They really inky work as a limited delay option. With Morans it's often difficult to place Koalas in the position you want, so it's a balance. Ideally you have 1 Koala well forward, the second Koala near the Moran. This forces separate Boosts rather than both Koalas Boosting at the same target and maximises coverage of your Repeater. Fourth, you made some specific mistakes. * Losing your Intruder quickly T1 says to me that you had it out on ARO. This is usually a mistake that early in the game. End of T2 is usually when I switch to putting the Intruder on Suppression. Ideally with a Jag in a position that will proc AROs first so that you can Smoke it (-12s in ARO are hilarious). * It seems like the Karakuri Haris was able to clear the Koalas and take out the Morans without dealing with Jazz' Hacking? If so this means that your Morans were probably too aggressively deployed. Morans work best vs HI watching short firelanes that force the HI to end the Repeater. Vs Warbands or DTW threats you want them watching 16" firelanes so that you can put them on Suppression. Morans die easily, the trick is to make them die slowly. * Yojimbos Koalas should never have had a chance to hit both Lupe and the Dak. That's a clear time you break the link, Dodge with a Jaguar (who usually will survive Koalas) and reform the link. * Brute forcing a Kamau with a MB is a tough one. Unless you build for it, CJC can have a tough time with Kamaus. Unless I absolutely need to fight it, I often just don't bother. With that list I'd probably have played cautiously with Massacre, used him to screen vs the Kamau and then peeled back the VIRD defensive set up, breaking the link with the Bandit or AD and only then fighting the Kamau in T2/3. * You seem to be pulling your AD early. This may actually have been the right move, but one of the great things about AD is that it's completely protected until you deploy it. A turn 2/3 drop allows you to recover from losing key pieces T1. List design points. * I'm not entirely sure what the Lunk is giving you in list 2/3? I like Lunks, but CJC is very crowded in the 20-25pt range. I think you'd have gotten more out of a Tomcat or Panzerfaust Jags: a Tomcat gives you another attack vector (AP Mine Tomcat does particularly well here) and Panzerfaust Jags give you a coord option vs strong AROs like Kamaus. * Linkable Daks can be a trap in lists with Intruders. You really need to be able to Dr Intruders, because they WILL go down to unlucky dice: but ARM3 + Cube means that vs anything that isn't Shock, they're probably only Unc.
A bandit KHD to dogpile the danavas with Jazz would have blunted it pretty well, additionally considering the targets a BSG bandit wants to go after the LSG is more than enough.
Disagree on the bolded part. I find BSG Bandits are giant-killers. EMauler goes down, then you either force a Dodge / BS Attack Fork or you proc the ARO with a second piece. If the EMauler goes off you can follow up by using the statue to bounce templates off with relative impunity. Admittedly they rarely make it into my CJC unless I'm running double Bandits, but I find they do different targets well.
fair, I just use them to massacre clumps of infantry and support staff. For hard targets I've found out side of stuff with TI and the Jotum (thats where the ADHL comes in) going into CC and slapping the stupid out of it tends to get the job done. Even when I'm running double bandits I find the BSG a hard sell, If they were AVA 3 on the other hand........
Usually I find it's the issue of crossing that last 8" that's the problem. Quite often it's overwatched (usually if I'm fighting a TAG it's DaBoarders and he literally wrote the 'book' on supporting them well) or you're at risk of eating a HFT on the approach. And while great, the ADHL doesn't have the same reliability as an EMauler. Although with 2 you can 1/2 with an EMauler and ADHL. I also find the EMauler offers up good defensive options: on a 8" firelane, if you're proper fucked then dropping the EMauler as your ARO can do a good job of shutting down that push.
Basically a second hacker and a Clockmaker would help you a lot if you're gonna take a lot of bots and repeaters. Any hacker that goes for Jazz through your own repeater will then have to eat another ARO, either splitting their burst or taking a normal roll. That increases Jazz chance of surviving markedly, especially vs anything that isn't NWI, where maestro and BTS 6 (and firewall vs non khds) are pretty solid protection. That probably turns that first exchange vs the Danavas from a loss to a win in their turn, and changes the entire complexion of that first game you describe. Bandit khd is a good candidate but even something with just brain blast (Valeria, EVO repeater or even just an Alguacile HD) will do it. Ideally also you place your koalas in such a way that they boost at the same time the Davanas enters your hacking area, forking it even further (since it has to choose between hack, reset or dodge so either your hacks will be normal rolls or the koala will auto hit). Koalas pair particularly well because they outright kill NWI non shock immune things Jazz' Maestro is less good against. Personally I've found the Tsyklon Feuerbach pretty golden supported correctly - that means a well placed and protected engineer for healing and hacker for supportware.
One question about the first battle: Did Danava use Moran's Repeater to hack Tsyklons and Lunokhod? Because she could only do so if they were in that particular Repeater's range. Unless I'm reading this wrong and she simply went after them on her own. From the perspective of someone who fights against CJC a lot: my biggest problem is usually getting through their defence in depth while guarding myself against flankers at the same time. As @inane.imp mentioned, Koalas are best deployed in layered manner; combined with Repeater nearby it makes breaking through order-intensive, regardless if I'm using light or heavy troops. And there's always a Bandit KHD on table to deal with me trying to use a hacker of my own. End result is that I need to hunker down near the center line, unless I'm lucky, had and executed a really good plan, or used AD on my own. Then I need to look out for Hellcat, Tomcat, and Lunokhod raids. The latter two are especially nasty, as shotguns and flamethrowers will punish any positioning mistakes on my part. I can try to deal with Lunokhod in my own turn, but as mentioned above, your AD is safe until the moment you decide to use it.
Well, no, but they have their own repeater strapped on, so the Danava hacked them through the firewall. Have we played this one wrong? That would probably make a huge difference! Thanks a lot, I will heed these advices. I took the Lunokhod with me to double down on the Koalas as my defence, since I did not find a place in my list for a dedicated aro piece (which also seems to be a problem for me in CJC). But the Karakuris basically walked through it, taking 3 Koalas, dodging one, armor saving one and taking one wound on the Shotgun Karakuri. Reading all this I start to feel, that I maybe relied on the Koalas to much and should have taken an actual aro piece with me (you were right on sticking the Intruder out to aro, too^^). My Opponents walked over my quite easily, which I would have denied in Bakunin through better aros. Guess I try to make my List a bit more defensive and spread my Koalas more^^
Koalas work best when they're paired with something else. Hacking + Koalas Koalas + BS Attack ARO Morans do this well when put on Suppression, otherwise you really need to leverage something else. Tsyklon Feuerbachs are probably the best bang for buck BS ARO going. Their range bands allow you to deploy them relatively conservatively such that your oppenent needs to push into your Koalas to fight them. I built this image to describe the sort of firelanes Wildcat HRLS do well on. But it works for Feuerbach Tsyklons as well. You can easily use a Lunokhod and/or second Moran / some Jags to protect the Tsyklon's blindside (instead of Combi Wildcats) and that red spot is where you want your other Moran's Koalas to cover. Ideally you want your opponent to need to achieve the following in succession: 1. Clear your Koalas 2. Fight your Hacker 3. Fight your hard ARO 4. Fight your Moran Generally the most effective piece for each of those jobs is different, so your opponent is either reduced to using less effective options or makes successive plays (Ie Warband, KHD SK, HI gun, Warband again) at the cost of efficiency. Even if they attempt to bully through with something like Karakuri, they're still slowed to 4" Move per order (because they need to counter your defences). Which should leave them exposed for your counter-attack. The other solid ARO choice in CJC are Panzerfaust Jaguars / Lupe. While not good primary AROs, a couple watching conservative 8-24" firelanes can play havoc with the efficiency of Alphas. So in the diagram above, you could happily have them set up to ARO across the front of the Tsyklon, to stop anyone pushing to attack from a direct approach. They don't need to be linked, but in a Massacre Haris they do provide good T1 defensive depth. MB MLs, Reaktions and Algs MSRs/MLSs all also are good options. But honestly, I find the Tsyklons Range Bands and active turn utility wins out for me. And yes, it sounds like you played Repeaters wrong. A Dansavas inside your Moran's repeater cannot usually hack your Tsyklon. If Alice is the Dansavas and Charlie is the Tsyklon, Alice either needs a friendly Repeater (1) or for the Tsyklon to be within the ZOC of the Moran's Repeater (2).
I’m just not good enough to play CJC, I think it’s a hard sectorial to play. I started with CJC a couple of years ago coming out of Op Icestorm and have always struggled with them, a big part of this I came to realise is their fragility, as Imp mentioned, they feel super squishy. I’ve shelved them and I recently switched to TJC and it’s like night and day, Hollows & Puppets mean you can just face tank wounds and still keep chugging, then recover on WIP15 engineer rolls. I recently steamed into a Ramah list at our local club without dropping an order (Puppets don’t count!) and wiped him, I’ve NEVER felt like that with CJC, the handful of wins I got felt very dicey.
Weird, I feel like CJC are super solid these days. Each individual trooper isn't that tough, but they're cost effective and you can bring a lot of dependable regular orders, solid area denial and a good specialist spread with a few dangerous strikers (Intruders, McDoggo, Tsyklon, Massacre, Bandits) that to be fair you do have to look after carefully but can utterly snooker an opponent if you do.
I wouldn't call them hard they just don't get to crutch on anything. They've gotten steady improvements to the point of feeling very low on weaknesses over the years, I would reconsider.
It's one of the reasons I really like them at the moment. Because they have nothing that is stupidly strong there's a lot of good archetypes that work. Intruders and McMurder are the closest you get. But you don't really feel like you're running a sub-optimal list leaving them out.
Intruders have their share of common weaknesses and require good play, maybe more than most CJC units due to their cost. McMurrough... is not a model I own.
The big wolf is definitely an awesome unit, and one I'm watching very carefully when @Errhile deploys him, but he's not broken... much. I haven't had the chance to fight it after Total Immunity upgrade, and I'm not hot about this particular change in general. The rest of CJC is just as you guys say, solid, not crazy strong, but with very few real weaknesses.
Even then, he's good. But hardly invincible or an absolute must-take. Also, because he's solo and relatively cheap he doesn't dominate list design in the way that Grrls, Hollowmen or a Sheskin do. He's more of a faction perk than he has a necessity.
I tend to agree. Mcmurrough is always a nice inclusion but never required. Lots of fireteams in the meta that can do good work against him. Pretty much the only mandatory auto-includes I’ve found are helots and libertos If you are allowed to take them. Too cheap and too good at what they do not to take them.
