Yes, and even this: could be healed if said remote TAG gets another rule that counters the -3 from supressive fire. And/or the Szalamandra or the HMRC gets a rule that gives him these -3. If this makes the game better is another topic. Like @inane.imp said, the fluff can be explained and it's not even clear how FA works. Is it more recoil compensation? Lighter but more bullets? A combination of both? I don't know. It's just a rule that does certain things and IMHO there are other rules with way less logic .
I don't think Full Auto really does make good game play. It's not like the game suddenly got better because some Random new Nomad HI suddenly became Infinity's definitive volume of fire trooper. I'd say it got worse because the rulebook got fatter, and one more skill got added with two levels that have nothing to do with each other, stack or don't stack with different things and work or don't work in different turns. According to the topic of the preceding post. I think you mean no disadvantages. Full Auto is as bad as if they gave the Kriza mimetism and a new rule called "MSV immunity", then started handing it out to bland HI to spice them up a bit. But it's actually even more gross than MSV immunity, because it works against hacking and dodge too. Not getting the mod when it dodges must really keep it up at night. They've all been terrible. Nothing that could explain why the Kriza Heavy Pistol is applying suppression mods in the reactive turn at burst 1 and the active turn at burst 3, when things at Native burst 5 are not without the added effort of suppressing fire. And the name is still terrible for a rare skill in a game where machineguns are everywhere.
They can go too. There's no need to keep bad rules when the game is already writhing with them like maggots in the bloated corpse of a diseased rat.
Look I don't like the Kriza. But it's not the only trooper with FA2 and it's not anywhere close to broken. Look at the Soggie FA2. It's pretty much the definition of a well designed Super Heavy Infantry. Personally I hope that Krizas change in NA4 (I don't think that they're good for Nomads, but that's an aesthetic question more than a rules one). But I have absolutely no issues with BS Burst +1 and Suppressive -3 as rules going into N4, nor do I have issues with them being combined on the same model. Both of those make more sense as tied to the profile not to a piece of Equipment that could be looted. Which in the game jargon of Infinity is "a skill". Fluffing BS Burst +1 in the way we've described above (a combination of skill, equipment and addnl ammunition that allows a trooper to sustain a higher than average rate of fire) would work. Equally, fluffing Suppressive -3 as using weight of fire to keep the targets head down works. I really don't understand the problem you have with that?
And i hope that in N4, they spread rules like Full auto, Lieutenant Lv 2, NCO, Counterinteligence, etc etc to the rest of the human sphere, and not keeping only in the lastest sectorials.
I'd change it in a different way, tying Full Auto effects to Burst 5, regardless of the source. This would require changes to things like twin weapons or fireteam bonuses, but would be logical and easy to remember. HRMC? Full Auto effect. Twin HMGs? Full Auto effect. 5-man fireteam? Full Auto effect.
Call "Full Auto effect" "Suppressive -3" and it'd be a solution. But by tying it to B5 you lose the ability to do things like add it to the Soggie Feuerbach.
The Kriza isn't even that bad except for the HMG profile. Which brings me back to the previous drum I was banging, HMGs need a nerf.
Partly the HMG is so good relative to the other profiles because it doesn't pay through the nose for 360 visors, which are horrendously overpriced on pretty much everything. How would you nerf them? I missed the earlier suggestions and broader justification. I do find HMGs strong, but hardly overwhelming.
Really? When I fielded them, on an Intruder, I found HMGs underwhelming. Facing PanO HIs they hardly do the job, because of the Normal Ammunition they are using. Maybe it's because my opponent mostly rolls insanely good armor saves, but D15 vs. ARM4 or ARM5 is pretty underwhelming in comparison to D13 from a Combi Rifle vs. ARM0 or ARM1 from a Line Trooper.
It's not relegated to just the Kriza. Looking at other troopers like the Epsilon, Gamma, Nisse, ORC, Spetsnaz, Intruder, Hac Tao, etc I see HMGs being chosen over Snipers, Feueueurbachs, etc 80-90% of the time. When you do see the alternate weapons it's often because someone's doubling up. Things like Spitfires also suffer, as DZ bound weilders are passed over due to the shorter range. Partly I think it's the fact that HMGs are one of the only weapons with a both a +3 range over 24" and a burst higher than 2. Personally I've thought about dropping burst to 3, still makes it the best active turn gun in the 24-32" rangeband but makes other options move attractive. I'd actually keep MHMGs and the HMRC the same to give their weilders a significant advantage. This would affect a lot of sectorials ability to project force, especially against defensive Fireteams, but this would 1) promote problem solving over throwing your best HMG at your opponent's best AROs turn one, and 2) justify some reduction in the efficacy of Fireteam bonuses.
It depends a lot on target selection: you're basically saying that "my weapon that wasn't optimised vs ARM only did ok vs ARM", that's still a good outcome. Conversely, I've buzzsawed a Maggie out of cover to death in 2 orders with a 3-core Moira HMG: B5 DAM15 packs a lot of punch when you're landing pretty much all your shots. But what I mostly find strong about them is the ability to start shooting effectively from order 1. This is notable in comparison with a Spitfire or similar weapon and it's something I feel in Bakunin. Bakunin has literally 3 offensive HMGs (TM, Moira and Reaktion) and none on top-tier attackers. This means that you can readily build Bakunin lists without a HMG and instead heavily reliant on Smoke to get you out of your DZ vs aggressive AROs (which Bakunin has by way of plentiful Morlocks). HMGs provide a reliable but unoptimised weapon that is good, but not great, in almost all active turn situations you need to use it in. That role of a utility offensive gun that you can use to bully practically any ARO in the game is important in a lot of lists. I don't see how you nerf that without managing a lot of second order effects.
@colbrook that's pretty much what I was spitballing in my head. You'd need to split HMGs from Multi-HMGs to avoid confusion (MMGs and HMGs would work....). While I appreciate your point 1, I think that it's actually an important function in the game: "if in doubt brute force it with burst" kinda needs to exist to allow less creative players to not get locked out of the game.
I just ran the numbers vs a Father Knight and an Intruder HMG has the same damage potential as an Intruder sniper in the Active turn, and a higher chance of doing one or two wounds, and is less likely to take damage in return The sniper only pulls ahead against ARM8+ in cover when AP becomes the better choice.
You can still brute force, an HMG with Burst 3 is still higher than any ARO in it's rangeband, and Spitfire-alogues still exist for Burst 4.
So the HMG was not the weapon to go against HI. Then I am wondering, what is the weapon to go? The 1 or 2 Feuerbach Profiles every faction has? Missile Launcher? HRL has only secondary effects. MSR comes to mind. All of them have only B2 max. If the HMG is considered so good that it needs a nerf, shouldn't it do the same damage like B2 weapons on average? OTOH I wouldn't mind a HMG nerf, I prefer shorter range weapons anyways. Because although the HMG can "theoretically" shoot from order 1, most of the time it just doesn't see anything and has to move. And if it moves, often it moves out of optimal range bands.
@colbrook. That's a little disingenuous: take an unlinked BS13 HI vs a linked BS11 MSR (ie average attacker vs average ARO). That FTF drops from 'risky but usually doable' into 'slightly better than a coin toss'. Add in Mimmetism and you're at 'I'm spending orders to kill myself' numbers. And that's before you look at the impact of that extra burst on the performance floor due to crits. Admittedly you acknowledge this by pointing out that it would justify reducing Fireteam bonuses. It also benefits high end unlinked AROs. I think you'd probably also need to look at Damage as part of this mix. Honestly, I think the average DAM is a touch too high. Dropping most DAM15 weapons to DAM14 but keeping Mk12s, your-new HMGs and TAG weapons at 15 would work to mitigate the loss of burst somewhat (while simultaneously increasing the importance of Anti-ARM ammos). You could pair this with dropping Spitfires to DAM13 and just making Red Furies 'Shock Spitfires', but *sigh*
The problem is that the HMG is the weapon you should be using in that exchange because it does more damage than B2 weapons on average and almost always has significantly lower odds of completely fluffing the exchange. It's really not until you start looking at Templates or TAGs that other weapons come into their own in a strict 1v1 mathfinity match up: this is one reason I love the core linked HRL as an aggressive swing-weapon, B3 BS16 with a Template hits HARD (the massive DAM buff template weapons get is why earlier in this thread I proposed dropping the Combi's DAM to 10 but removing the +3 ARM from Cover). What @colbrook is essentially saying is that the HMG dominates active turn engagements between 24-32" so much that it crowds out other options.
Yep, and because the Active Turn is where you have the advantage people tend to gear themselves to win with it. Though Suppressive Fire also makes the HMG a credible ARO threat, just at different ranges. Maybe burst 3 is too much of a nerf, maybe a points increase or changing the 8-16 range modifier to -3.
