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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Roughly speaking, what's missing in performance compared to a straight up regular old HMG on the Yan Huo is NWI and a small skill like Mimetism as well as MOV 4-4 - in terms of points only.

    As far as actual performance and how it slots in to the rest of the faction(s), the Yan Huo HMG and 2ML both are direly missing 4-4 to keep up with the Zuyong Haris properly and NWI can't hurt, but Mimetism is treading on where the Mowang is. I say just drop the Yan Huo by 10 points to the same level as Qiang, because the Yan Huo in terms of performance is more suited to the role that they tried to slot Qiang into (which is heavy damage dealer) than Qiang is and then re-evaluate what Qiang is meant to be. In terms of actual stats, there isn't much difference between Qiang and Yan Huo after you break points down, except for the fact that Yan Huo has a much larger silhouette which should give it some discount.
    I also think the tinbot C profile should have FTO and that all of them should have a heavier pistol - Multi Pistol would be appropriate considering both the rest of the gear and that the models clearly have neither Heavy Pistols nor Breaker Pistols.
     
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  2. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    A 10 point reduction on the Yan Huo's cost would make me at least consider him. I don't think he'd be a priority pick by any means, but he'd at least be usable.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    a 44 point HRMC on a BS14 ARM 5 2W platform would be a non-priority so-so pick? Are you kidding me?
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    In general I think the HRMC is a bit too close to the MHMG in price, I think they should more clearly diverge in price. +1 B is a lot better than EXP in anti-materiel mode, and it's also a lot more significant that getting MULTI on a HMG (you need to win the Face to Face to have a chance of dealing damage, anything that helps winning face to face will be more significant than most damage dealing aspect).

    So yeah, a HRMC for 44 is probably too low, but MHMG on a slow and large non-TA platform for 43 is fairly close to reasonable.
     
  5. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    The best way to fix the Yanhuo is to turf the +3BS fireteam bonus so that its BS of 14 is relevant again. Alternatively, if you can't beat them, join them, Wildcard on all Yanhuo profiles.

    Other options include Changing Full Auto so that it instead allows Suppression as a short movement skill (the other bonuses are stupid).
     
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  6. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    It'd certainly be good for its point at that price, but I still wouldn't make room for it as a primary piece. The reduction would make it easier to include him alongside the troopers I want to build lists around, but his kit means he doesn't get that treatment for himself. He'd go from competing with my Su Jian, Hac Tao, Daofei, and others to competing with my Haidao sniper and the like. It's a much better position for him to be in, but his brute-force functionality means that he'd rely heavily on the list he'd have to fit into.

    At 44 points, I'd still probably be inclined to take a Haidao MSR over him most of the time. But he'd be a worthy alternative.
     
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  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    How about giving him a skill that allows him to use his normal weapon range on suppressive fire?
    This would give him a distinct niche as a piece that can switch from a respectable offense into a long range ARO role. The second part is somewhat kept in check by the fact that they are slow and need to get into position and SF state first, so it does require a good amount of setup to get most most value out of it.

    Call it "Barrage"
     
    #707 Knauf, Feb 24, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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  8. Janzerker

    Janzerker Well-Known Member

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    My suggestion would be:
    - Drop cost by 5 pts
    - Improve BTS +3
    - Add Courage
    - Add MSV 1

    That would be my simple fix. Despite some people ask for improved movement and NWI, the truth is fluff makes clear that armor is just a reinforced exoskeleton to be able to carry very heavy weapons. Also the RPG sheds some light about Azrail armors being a lower quality version of the Yan Huo armor sold to Haqq by the same developer company. So I guess the low MOV should stay.

    However the existence of Kriza Borak and the Full Auto rule is just RETARDED, as there's nothing more trigger happy and with the capacity to keep sustained fire to the point target and surroundings become a pure hell than the Yan Huo. In spite of that Kriza Borat exists as a RETARDED design of Gutier aka @Interruptor to cater Nomads as his favored stepchild in the same way as Hollowmen and ovebuffed Riot Grrls. Units that work in a way they shouldn't in their armies, (ITS data confirms Nomads play more HIs and more frequently than YJ or PanO) but anyway…

    It would be ideal if Full Auto skill was split in two. As the second level skill effect is something Yan Huo should definitively have as part of their identity. It's ridiculous that right now a Kriza clown is more effective at keeping people's heads down than the Inferno a Yan Huo can create.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Fixed that for you ;)
    (But your point stands)

    I don't actually have a problem with Full Auto other than the conceptualization of it (I think it'd make more sense if it was a device attached to a particular gun) and the fact that it adds to the feeling that the system is being cheated for one particular unit...
    What I mean with this is that it seems FA1 costs somewhere in the area of 3 to 5 points (I haven't dug deep) - and this applies to both the main gun, be it a Feuerbach or an HMG, as well as the secondary weapons, be they Panzerfaust or Heavy Pistols. Gecko seem to pay 3 points for its extra Combi. Hulang seems to pay 3 points for its extra SMG. Yan Huo seem to pay 14 points for its extra missile launcher. Something's not entirely right here...
    There's no doubt that FA1 is preferable to having an extra gun, even if it is slightly costlier, but in the case of Yan Huo 2ML it no longer seem to follow the established pricing that other units pay for dual (main) guns. (And there's no way in hell that it actually is only +3 over a single ML, as that would mean the Yan Huo MHMG would be paying only +2 points over a regular HMG, which would not only be entirely unbelievable that Multi and AP HMG costs the same, but also mean that the Yan Huo is stupidly hand adjusted)

    I like your idea, though I'd prefer it if the Yan Huo's targeting computer gave them Marksmanship instead of MSV, simply due to have they interface with White Noise and that it'd create a more unique set of abilities that particularly interfaces extra well with the Tinbot C version.
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I would like to expand upon the idea of the Yan Huo being a slow moving (4-2), self stabilizing gun platform (because that's what he literally is), which is why the Neurocinetics ML profile makes so much sense.
    I would like it if they made the MHGM a profile with Total Reaction, which would give it a reason to exist, over the HRMC.

    Also, give them courage... no, seriously, I can't tell you how many times I've attempted to eat my own beard in anger, because my (supposedly) ARO profile of Dual ML + Tinbot C, tanked several puny combi rifles, only to cower like a pussy.
     
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  11. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Sorry if this is a stupid question, but...which restriction is this referring to?

    More general question: Would you consider the MHMG Yan Huo a better pick if CB gave it Full Auto 2? (Not the FTO profile, the generic one.)
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    The expenditure of an Order allows the activated trooper to declare one of the following combinations of Skills:
    • Any one Entire Order Skill.
    • Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Movement Skill.
    • Any one Short Movement Skill plus any one Short Skill (and vice versa).
    So because you cannot declare two Short Skills in the same order (as opposed to a Short Skill plus a Short Movement Skill), it is not normally legal to declare two BS attacks in an order (or a BS attack and pressing a button, etc etc).
     
  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the idea of NWI as a fix. It is handed out far to liberally as a discount 3rd wound with no basis in the unit's description. NWI should be severely scaled back, to just LHosts, Characters and Monsters. And it should either not be affected by shock, or shock should be a lot more rare than it is (back to just MULTI weapons and shock CCWS).

    Mechanical transmutation to deploy the stabs or something might be cool for the yanhuo, but the major issue is how poorly it stacks up to fireteams. The problem is with fireteams.
     
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  14. darthchapswag

    darthchapswag Shandian Strike Team

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    An interesting concept would be if some models, like the Yan Huo, had Suppression L2 (-6) for when it goes into SF.

    This could pair with previously mentioned buffs to TAGs and S5 (and S2?) HI of being able to enter SF as a short skill.
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    I'd be over the moon with a simple "All BS weapons and weapon modes on a unit with this skill gain the Supressive Fire Trait". B3 Missiles, EXP or DA rounds in ARO with an attached mod would be an unheard-of amount of sheer reactive power.
     
  16. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    Random idea but what about a Tinbot C MHMG? Kind of a weird alternative to a TR bot but HI-flavoured
     
  17. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    This would probably outclass the ML variant. Burst is still king under most circumstances.
     
  18. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    1) I personally think it would be fitting for the HI-faction to have a TR-REM in HI Flavour

    2) giving him neurocinetics would give him the same issue like the Nomads Sin Eater, as in you’re paying for very much but you’re restricted in your active turn, to the point where it’s just more beneficial to bring two TR-REM’s instead
     
  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Ok, I see what happened, you wrote "in a turn" as opposed to "in one Order" and I'm new enough to react by assuming a rule I wasn't aware of, and not "oh, it's a typo." (I uhhhh don't feel too guilty about that error on my part, this ruleset is labyrinthine sometimes.)
     
  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Aha! Yes, I definitely meant in an order.
     
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